THE LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP PODCAST

In this episode of the Long Blue Leadership Podcast, Cadet First Class Andrew Cormier opens up about his inspiring journey from growing up in Massachusetts to becoming a squadron commander at the U.S. Air Force Academy. He reflects on the early influences that shaped his values, the value of community service and service before self, sharing the leadership lessons he’s learned along the way.
 
SUMMARY
Andrew also talks about launching his own podcast, designed to help fellow cadets explore their career paths and grow as leaders. Throughout the conversation, he highlights the importance of understanding diverse career opportunities, the personal growth that comes from podcasting, and the power of community engagement. With a focus on national pride and perspective, he emphasizes that true leadership is about serving others—putting the team first rather than seeking personal recognition.
 
5 QUOTES
"It's not about you. It's not about you. It's about the team."
"When you're a leader, it's your job. There shouldn't be any extra, you know, kudos given to you. Everyone has their own piece in the puzzle, and just because your face is more prominent than others does not mean that the mission is any less doable with like one piece missing or another piece missing."
"I just really urge people to try to understand other people's perspectives and listen more than they talk, because those pieces for me, like I'm a Pretty staunch capitalist, but I recently bought the Communist Manifesto. I want to understand where these ideas stem from."
"American ideals are amazing, and they need to be protected. And in order for me to have any say in that, I need to have skin in the game. And that's what I look at my service as is me gaining skin in the game."
"It's not difficult, it's just super time consuming and kind of annoying. And so, I mean, it even like stays true to today, everything I have to do isn't necessarily difficult. I'm a management major. I don't know what the Astro or aero people are going through. I'm sure that's very difficult. But for me, it's more just like getting the reps in it, and it's very gradual."
- C1C Andrew Cormier ’25, October 2024
 
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CHAPTERS
00:00:  Introduction to Cadet Andrew Cormier
02:52:  Andrew's Early Life and Background
05:52:  Discovering the Military Path
08:46:  Community Service and Humanitarian Efforts
12:10:  Transitioning to the Air Force Academy
15:07:  Experiences in Basic Training
17:57:  Leadership and Followership at the Academy
20:47:  Becoming a Squadron Commander
24:11:  The Role of a Squadron Commander
27:12:  Starting the Podcast Journey
34:54:  Understanding Career Paths in the Air Force
39:30:  The Impact of Podcasting on Personal Growth
44:45:  Engagement and Value in the Cadet Community
52:36:  Navigating Post-Graduation Decisions
01:00:05:  The Importance of National Pride and Perspective
01:04:53:  Leadership Lessons: It's Not About You
 
ANDREW'S 5 KEYS TO LEADERSHIP SUCCESS
Leadership is not about you, it's about the team. As a leader, your job is to represent and protect your people, not focus on personal privileges.
Seek to understand different perspectives and listen more than you talk. Don't take American ideals and freedoms for granted - they need to be actively defended.
Balance future planning with living in the present. Don't become overly fixated on the future at the expense of enjoying the moment.
Perseverance, critical thinking, and resourcefulness are key to success. Rely on these core strengths rather than trying to control everything.
Diverse experiences and mentorship are invaluable. Seek out advice from those who have walked the path you want to follow, and be open to learning from a variety of backgrounds.
 
ABOUT ANDREW
BIO
C1C Andrew D. Cormier is a cadet at the U.S. Air Force Academy (USAFA) in Colorado Springs, CO. Cadet Cormier is the commander of squadron 15, the Mighty War Eagles. C1C Cormier is originally from Fitchburg, MA and entered the Air Force Academy in June of 2021 following his lifelong passion to “serve others.” Throughout his cadet career he has held the squadron position of Diversity & Inclusion NCO and Spark Innovator, but on an unofficial level has hosted the “For the Zoomies” podcast interviewing over 75 officers to better understand their experiences in the Air Force for the sake of helping cadets make career decisions, as well as been a widely trusted barber in the dormitories. C1C Cormier plans to complete his Bachelor of Science in Business Management in May 2025. Immediately following graduation he intends to commission as a Second Leiutenant in the U.S. Air Force and become an Acquisitions Officer.
- Copy and Image Credit: Andrew Cormier 
 
CONNECT WITH ANDREW
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RECOMMENDED LISTENING:  FOR THE ZOOMIES PODCASTwith C1C Andrew Cormier
 
LISTEN NOW!
 
 
ABOUT LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP
Long Blue Leadership drops every two weeks on Tuesdays and is available on Apple Podcasts, TuneIn + Alexa, Spotify and all your favorite podcast platforms. Search @AirForceGrads on your favorite social channels for Long Blue Leadership news and updates!
    
 
 
FULL TRANSCRIPT
SPEAKERS
GUEST:  C1C Andrew Cormier  |  HOST:  Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz ’99
 
Naviere Walkewicz 00:00
My guest today is Cadet 1st Class Andrew Cormier, USAFA Class of ’25. Andrew stands out among the finest examples of those who have taken the service-before-self aspect of their work as developing leaders very seriously. In Andrew's case, he helps and supports his fellow cadets by guiding them to their optimal career paths through the guests and their experiences on his podcast. This is a new approach for Long Blue Leadership, and one we think you'll appreciate, because we're looking at leadership through the eyes of one who both follows and leads, thriving in both spaces. We'll talk with Andrew about his life before and during his time at the Academy. We'll ask where he's headed when he graduates. We'll discuss the role he's taken on as a podcaster, and we'll ask how he's successfully led and followed. We'll end with Andrew's takeaways and leadership tips. Andrew, welcome to Long Blue Leadership. We're so glad you're here.
 
Andrew Cormier
Thanks for having me, Naviere.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Absolutely. So it's got to be a little bit different being on the other side of the podcast mic.
 
Andrew Cormier
Yeah, no, it's definitely interesting to be here. I've done a few before, but they weren't in person, and this was like the highest quality, so I have a little bit of imposter syndrome, not gonna lie.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Oh goodness. Well, we'll learn from each other, right? I think that's the best. We can always be learning; we can always get better. So, I'm excited to take in some of the things that you do as well. Feel really good about that. Well, one of the things we like to do on Long Blue Leadership is we rewind the clock a little bit. Some clocks are further rewound back than others, and so I'm really excited to kind of get to know. Where were you before the Academy? Where'd you grow up? What was life like?
 
Andrew Cormier
OK, I'm not as chronologically advanced, like, relative to maybe my experience in high school. I grew up in Fitchburg, Massachusetts, lot of pride coming from the East Coast. My parents, my dad, he worked as a general contractor, so I spent a lot of summers laying tile, you know, doing framing houses, all that sort of stuff, just like, you know, a general laborer. Honestly, just like sweeping up a lot of dust and mess, as he actually did all the hard work. And then I went to a tech school, Montachusett Regional Vocational Technical High School. That's a mouthful, but I went there mostly because my brother went there. I wasn't a huge decision maker back then, like I consider myself somewhat now. And I studied machine technology, and working on metal pieces like running lathes and mill machines and electronic discharge machines, just to — I didn't really know what preparing for the future was like, but that was the kind of path I was on. But then, I grew up playing hockey and lacrosse, and I realized that I had an opportunity with that somewhat, and I was traveling the East Coast playing lacrosse. Think it was after a tournament in Ashton, Pennsylvania, me and my dad got a phone call from Coach Wilson, the Air Force Academy lacrosse coach, saying, “Hey, we saw you play this weekend. We'd love to have you out.” And so that's like a really quick rundown of where I come from, but I guess moral of the story: I really appreciate the background, the kind of blue-collar experiences that I've had when it comes to growing up in Massachusetts.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
No, that's awesome. And I think it's, it's great know that you're not afraid to get your hands dirty, to work hard and grit. I mean, that kind of is also synonymous with hockey. I feel like you work hard, you dig. So let's talk about that a little bit more. Older brother then. So you're one of two? Any other siblings?
 
Andrew Cormier
Yeah, just me and my brother.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
OK, and so what was it like growing up with an older brother? You know, were you always the one that he got to test things on? Or what did that look like?
 
Andrew Cormier
No, my brother — he's about three and a half years older than me, so we never really were in school at the same time. He was always, four grades ahead. So we went to all the same schools, but he was leaving just as soon as I was arriving. But no, he was a great big brother. I was more of like the wild child, me and my mom will sometimes look at the family videos, and it's me kind of just being this goofball, like not appreciating things, like complaining, whining, all this stuff while Zach's over here, trying to help me. Like, I remember this video: We lived in this house where the driveway was very steep, and so we would just like drive our little like plastic carts down the driveway right, and my brother was over here, like, trying to push me up the hill, and I'm over here, like yelling at him—
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Go faster!
 
Andrew Cormier
No, I was like, “Stop, Zach, stop!” Like, looking back, I'm like, wow, I was just a goofball. He's over here trying to help me, right? But no, he was. He was a great big brother. And to be honest, growing up, I consider myself to have, like, a really spongy brain in terms of, I want to learn things through other people's experiences so that I don't make the same mistakes myself. And so when I would see my brother do all these things, he got into lacrosse. I got into lacrosse. He went to Monty Tech. I saw what cool opportunities there were with that. I went there. And so it was kind of like he tested the waters for me, and then I ended up, following suit. And it's, it's kind of changed since then, I've come to a little bit more of like an independent person. But, you know, growing up, you kind of always look up to your big brother.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Yes, I love that. And so, aside from being recognized through your lacrosse sport, how? How did the military come into play? Was that something always on the radar? Is it somewhere in your family, maybe not with your dad or your mom, but elsewhere?
 
Andrew Cormier
Yeah, um, my family wasn't big on the military, not that — you know, we grew up pretty disciplined, but the on my mom's side, her parents are immigrants from Canada. There's not a whole bunch of military history there. But on my dad's side, my Pepe, his dad, was drafted for the Korean War, and so he did communications for four years, and then he got out. But beyond that, I mean, he passed when I was young, so I never really got to really — he never really had the opportunity to instill lessons into a sentient person, more or less. So, yeah, I felt more or less like I was doing this for the first time, like it wasn't a huge military thing. But in high school again, my brother, it was an open house. I was in seventh or eighth grade. I get brought to the Marine Corps Junior ROTC program at my high school. And I was really like, what's going on here?
 
Naviere Walkewicz
In an excited way, or?
 
Andrew Cormier
Kind of. It was more like, intrigued, not super— my first question after he gave his little pitch was, “So do I have to serve?” And he was like, “No, no, no.” And I was kind of relieved. So that's kind of my initial impression. I go to school, I'm not enrolled initially, and to be honest, I don't remember what urged me to enroll in the program, but I ended up enrolling. I loved it.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
What year was that?
 
Andrew Cormier
It was freshman year, so I did all three years, because I transferred to a different school my senior year, but I did it all three years, and I loved it, mostly because of the service aspect of it. We did a lot of — it wasn't like, I feel like ROTC, especially at the Academy, because, you know, if other cadets see this, they’re probably gonna flame me for it. But this has, it has this perception of collecting badges and ribbons and, cadet general, all that sort of stuff. And that was so far from what my program was all about, we were doing a bunch of community service. Like, you know, in Fitchburg, we would go near the Boys & Girls Club and pick up trash in the area. Obviously, picking up the trash wasn't fun, but just like, going out and do something with your buddies on the weekend, that was fun. Countless Salvation Army collections, like we'd sit outside the grocery store—
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Ring the bell?
 
Andrew Cormier
Yeah, collect money. All those sorts of things were what really pushed me on. And then I think the culminating thing that really pushed me to want to pursue this was, my sophomore year, we did a humanitarian trip after Hurricane Harvey hit in Texas. So we went down to Wharton, raised a whole bunch of money, took 50 of the about 100 cadet corps, and we posted up in this Boys & Girls Club gymnasium, all on cots. We'd march to breakfast at Wharton Community College, and then we'd spend the day going back and forth in teams, in our vans, either bringing cabinetry to houses, flooring to houses, drywall to houses. And then we'd install it, because it was all flooded up to pretty much the knee from Hurricane Harvey. And so that week that we spent down there was super impactful to me, especially at the end. There was a bunch of little projects, but centrally, there was a big project, because this house was basically destroyed. And coming from a tech school, we have a bunch of plumbers, carpenters, cabinet makers, all the all these different trades coming together, and they ended up doing something really good for this one family. And so they left for a week, and then they were able to reintroduce them on that Friday, and it was super heartwarming. I don't know how I feel saying that word, because I emasculated myself, but, that sort of feeling. It was like, “Wow, we really, like, helped a family,” and it was impactful to me. And so, you know, now at the Academy, I'm like, I haven't had time to do community service, and I feel bad about it, but that's kind of what really got me interested in it.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Well, I think it's fascinating how, you know, your ability — you worked with your dad, so I think you brought some of those skills, and then again through school. But I think a heart of service is kind of the theme that we're hearing early on in this conversation. What I think we're going to even talk about more. So you were discovered through lacrosse, the little — you went on a, probably an intercollegiate, tour of the Academy. And were you like, “Yes, this is it,” or was it still like a “Well…”
 
Andrew Cormier
Yeah, so backtrack a little bit. My senior year I ended up transferring to Northfield Mount Hermon. It's a college preparatory school, so I was boarding there. And I say that because when I came here, I was really interested in old schools that have a lot of heritage, a lot of tradition. My school, it was like, I — all my fellow “Hoggers” are going to be disappointed that I forget the year that it was founded by Dwight L. Moody, but it's a very old school. Lots of traditions, a lot of fun stuff to like, you know, students are looking forward to and seeing what a lot of the freshmen had to do in my trip here, despite it being a relatively younger school compared to West Point and Annapolis, I was like, “That's cool.” Like, I like the hierarchy structure of it. I really like seeing it. The chapel was out, so I got to see, ya know, it was one of those sort of situations where I was really looking for a school that had fit the criteria of getting able to, you know, serve tradition. And I really wanted to play college lacrosse and at that time it looked like it was gonna fit those descriptions.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Yeah, so the Academy it was, and what was day 1 like for you?
 
Andrew Cormier 12:41
A few disclaimers: I want to say that, one, I didn't end up making lacrosse team, so I don't want to be, you know, claiming I made it and I didn't. And two, so…
 
Naviere Walkewicz
…so let's pause there a second. So you were initially recruited, but you got and you had to do the whole application and get in on your own, because you ended up not being a recruited athlete?
 
Andrew Cormier
Yes, and I got denied my first time.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
OK, let's talk about that.
 
Andrew Cormier
Yeah, so I, I applied Well, trade school, education, trade one week, education, other week. So you can see I might be slightly deficient in in certain academic realms. And so that's why I transferred to college Preparatory School, because I wanted to, you know, go all in on my academics, hopefully, you know, get me in. It worked in terms of really opening my perspective, but didn't work in terms of getting me into the Academy the first try, which I was initially a little bummed about, but now looking back on it, I'm like, that was, you know, the Falcon Foundation, shout out to him, or shout out to them, and Gen. Lorenz, everyone. We actually had the dinner last week that was super fun. But I didn't get in. But I got offered Falcon Foundation Scholarship, and I ended up going to again, picking schools off of tradition, Marion Military Institute, which is the oldest one on the list of options. And yeah, I went there for a year during COVID, and that's where I guess the gap is because I'm a Class — I was Class of 2020 in high school, graduating Class of ’25, there's that gap. I hope I answered your question.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
That's fantastic, actually. And, and I think for those listeners who may not be aware of the Falcon Foundation. You know, we have a number of different college preparatory, military preparatory programs that are affiliated with our Academy. And I think it's a wonderful testament to — you apply for the Air Force Academy. You don't apply for a preparatory school, but the Academy recognizes when we have areas that are maybe just under the cut line, but someone we're really interested in, and how do we get them there? And so I think it's fantastic that you were able to get a Falcon Foundation Scholarship. And I don't call that a gap. I call that just an extra year of preparatory So, yeah, it's wonderful.
 
Andrew Cormier
I was definitely prepared more.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Yes, OK, so you came in on day 1 feeling pretty good then, because, you know, where others might have been the whole basic training experience, just kind of, you know, knock their socks off. You're like, “All right, we know this military thing.” Is that true?
 
Andrew Cormier
Yeah. And, I mean, I guess in terms of, I know how to make a bed, I know how to wear a uniform, that was less daunting. I'm a management major. I don't know what the Astro or Aero people are going through. I'm sure that's very—
 
Naviere Walkewicz
I'm glad you put that caveat in there. OK.
 
Andrew Cormier
Yes, I'm a management major. All the assignments are more or less easy, but it's more just like getting the reps in and it's very gradual. So I don't want this to make it sound like the Academy is easy by any means, because what's difficult about it is the task-saturation they have you doing. It's like stuffing 10 pounds of sand in a 5-pound bag, that sort of deal. That's where it's difficult, at least for me. And so coming into it with hearing those sort of perceptions, that's how I went into it feeling, and I was kind of right. I mean, basic training wasn't super rigorous.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
You were fit.
 
Andrew Cormier
I was, you know, I was able to memorize things.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Good, your mind is a sponge, so that was probably helpful.
 
Andrew Cormier
Yeah, I had all my— my bed making skills were already down pat, so all the really tactical things were taken care of, and I understood that I was going to get yelled at no matter what. And coming into it with that, I was just like, OK, this is a game of attrition, and I just can't quit.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
I love that. So how did you translate what you felt was maybe not as difficult and you saw others struggling? Have there been times where you've had to step up and take on a role of being more of a support or a leader amongst your peers?
 
Andrew Cormier
Yes, of course. I mean, in my baby squad, we had — I wasn't the only, not only preppy, but also they call them prepsters. I was technically a prepster because I didn't go to the “P” but, you know, I was still did a prep year, and we had a prior enlisted person, and so the four or five of us had already seen all this stuff before. And when it came to studying the Contrails, showing people how to, you know, make their closet and all those sort of things. And also when it came to just being away from home, I had been away from home since I was about 17, and I got there when I was 19 or 20. And so acclimating to living away from home is kind of difficult challenge. And so just being there for the people that are like, “I miss home, I miss my mom, I miss my dad, I miss my home food” and all this sort of stuff. You know, there, there aren't a lot of opportunities for chit chat during basic training, at least towards the beginning, but towards the end, I'm like, you know, “You got this, let's power through.”
 
Naviere Walkewicz
And yeah, I love that. So let's talk about, while you've been a cadet, maybe some of the ways that you've been a follower and some of the ways that you've been a leader, aside from the one you just kind of shared, what have been some ones that have stood out to you as you're continuing to develop your leadership skills?  
 
Andrew Cormier 18:48
OK, following — very much freshman year you're following. Trying to think of some concrete examples. I think credibility, like understanding where you fall on the credibility hierarchy is somewhat a dictator, an indicator of where you should be in terms of leading and following, and I understood that relative to the rest of my baby squaddies, I might have been slightly above the average in terms of credibility, but in terms of the entire squadron, lowest of the low.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Tell me why. Let's talk about that. What do you mean?
 
Andrew Cormier
Well, I mean, I remember freshman year when we were getting quizzed on our shoulder board rankings. It's a ground-cloud horizon, and freshmen just have the cloud because their heads in the clouds. They're, very unfamiliar with this place. And you know, it's true, not only do you not know what it's like to have a bunch of GRs in a week as a freshman, just coming out of basic training, but you also don't know what it's like to understand an organization. I didn't understand what a reporting structure like — you know, I didn't understand a lot of these intricacies, and I tried my best to have some humility and understanding that and just keeping my ears open for it. And with that credibility spectrum I was confident in the sense that I could be self-sufficient NS take care of what I needed to take care of on the academic front, the knowledge, the K-test front, athletic front. But when it came to, oh wow, I’ve never been in a 100-person organization before and at the bottom of it, this is a time to take some notes. I think that’s definitely a theme’s that’s definitely followed through with the podcast especially. I kind of avoided giving a concrete example of the followership.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 25:00
You had mentioned you thought it was a whole bunch of KPP, so what is the role really like as a squadron commander?
 
Andrew Cormier 25:07
It's different than I thought it would be. You know, I think there's this perception of leadership at the Academy, amongst cadets, that leadership is land-naving through the athletic fields and like Jacks Valley. You know what I mean? Like, leadership is these super tactical things, like, how can you be as close to George Washington as possible? But, one, there's not many opportunities. And if you're doing that, opportunities for that sort of stuff, and if you're doing that stuff, you're probably not delegating as you should. And so I think the biggest takeaway that I've gotten from this position is like representation of your people and protection of them.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Talk about that.
 
Andrew Cormier 25:57
So even this past week — I don't want it to be tainted that he's a very good friend of mine, because I would have done this for anybody in my squadron. But he received some paperwork from somebody else, his supervisor. He works a group job, so the paperwork was coming from a wing person, and it was outlining how he had failed to do this and all this stuff, and then at the end, it had said something about his like, — I'm super cool. People mess up all the time. I mess up all the time. That's understandable. Mistakes are gonna happen. But the last paragraph rubbed me the wrong way, because it said something about his character, that, knowing him, well, I didn't really — it seemed very out of character. And so, you know, I've had cadet squadron commanders in the past that are just like, you know, hey, I'm going to trust everything that that the wing person said, issue all of the demerits, tours, paperwork that comes with the recommendation and leave it at that, but my attempt to really take this position seriously is to get the perspective of my friend, see what his opinion on it was like. Maybe let me gather a little bit more evidence. And upon doing that, the statement that was at the bottom of it was completely not apparent in the evidence. And this really raised an alarm for me, because if I weren't to do that, not only was it sent to me, but it was sent to permanent party. I'm like, this is, you know, kind of throwing some dirt on his reputation, and it's not true. And so what happened was I immediately texted the guy. It was cool. I worked with him over the summer on wing staff, and I went to his room, and I was like, “Hey, so, you know, just trying to get some understanding. I'm not here to press you about this, but I want to understand what's actually going on here. This is what is outlined in the Form 10. This is the evidence that I gathered from my friend, and they don't really seem to be congruent.” And then he starts giving his case, and I don't disagree with any of the things where he actually, you know, failed to do things. But then, when it came to the part about his character, he was like, “Yeah, so that's the issue. I did that out of anger of somebody else.” Because I remember seeing the group chat and the message was sent, and then my friend responded super politely, super respectfully, and then his co-worker was like, you know, kind of escalatory, aggressive. And then, as a result, both of them got negative paperwork. And I believe that only the negative character should have been put on his co-worker, not on my friend. And he admitted to that, and he was like, “I'm willing to walk that back, because it doesn't give an accurate representation of his character.” And so, you know, my friend was super appreciative, because, you know, we ended up having a permanent party conversation the next day, and we cleared everything up, and they were like, “Thank you for investigating this a little bit more. Because if you didn't, we probably would have just ran with the guy's recommendation and maybe thought a little bit less of him.” So, um, I guess when it comes to protecting my people, maybe that's now thinking back on it, maybe that's a first sergeant job to handle, like the discipline stuff, but maybe that it was my friend that took a little bit more ownership of it, and wanted to make sure it's correct. But that's more or less an example of protecting my people, or representing my people, I guess they kind of go hand in hand on. I guess, another note of protecting—
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Or even what you've learned since being in the role of squadron.
 
Andrew Cormier 30:04
Yeah.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Peer leadership is hard, wouldn’t you agree?
 
Andrew Cormier 30:04
It is very difficult. And I think maybe part of the reason why I was selected was because I have a relatively good reputation in squadron to be friendly. Last semester I was D&C. So, you know, I'm outside of the formation, making corrections –
 
Naviere WalkewiczWhat is D&C?
 
Andrew Cormier
D&C: drilling and ceremonies. So I'm outside of the squadron making corrections as people are marching. And it's not an easy thing to do when it's somebody older than you as well. And I'm over here cracking jokes with them and making sure that I do it to everyone, not just certain people. I dig in a little bit more to my friends who I know can accept it, and then it might ease the tension of all the other people who might be not doing it right. And then I go talk to them, like, “Hey, chest up a little bit,” or, like, “'Fix your dress.” But yeah, I think that that was a big piece of me getting picked for it, because I have to uphold a standard, especially in today's Cadet Wing. I don't know if the listeners are privy to all the change going on in the Cadet Wing, but there's a much larger emphasis on standards. “Hey, I'm low key doing you a favor by correcting you so that you don't end up in a three-star’s office.” And so as much as it's made cadet life as a whole, somewhat more difficult, it's made my job as a squadron commander, supposed to enforce these standards, a little bit easier, because they know that I'm not like the highest person that's like enforcing this. This isn't me power tripping. This is me trying to look out for people. That perception makes a big difference.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
No, that's really helpful, and probably more than you thought we were going to be talking about, because you were probably thought we spending a lot of time talking about For the Zoomies, and I'd like to get there. So let's, let's talk about that right now. So, when did it start and why?
 
Andrew Cormier
The reason changed over time, but I started it. I came out of CST, combat survival training, after my freshman-year summer. So it was approximately July timeframe. And I've always been an avid podcast listener. Loved hearing conversations, new ideas, learning, you know, while I just drive. I might think I'm a little bit more productive, like multitasking. And so I've always wanted to start one, but I wanted to be meaningful, not just me and my friends just yapping in some microphones. So what I did was, after freshman year, all of the fever dream of it was over. I could start projecting into the future, not just living in the present. I started projecting into the future, and I'm like, “Oh crap, I have an active-duty service commitment. I actually have to think about that decision for a little bit.” And I was scared because I didn't want to be a pilot. We had Career Night, which is one night every year, and then Ops, which was a whole year out. So I'm just like, I'm not the type to just sit back and let things happen to me. And so to address this issue, I went ahead and was like, you know, Col. Rutter. I went asked him, “Hey, is this feasible? What sort of problems you think I could run into? You know, like, PA, whatever?” And he was like, “Dude, go for it.” And so I started off just interviewing AOCs around base, getting — he was my first episode, talking about A-10s, even though I didn't want to be a pilot, you know, even though I don't want to do that, I'd like to learn more about it. Same thing, maintenance, acquisitions — being a management major was something I was very exposed to in the classroom, and then, you know, it just kind of like expanded. I covered a decent number of AFSCs, and then I started getting to the point where I had this better picture of not only what job I wanted, but also a holistic understanding of how these jobs and career fields intertwined, and it gave me a better picture of what the Air Force does as a whole. And so that was like a big learning piece for it, but it transitioned to, “OK, I don't want to just interview people and like, “Oh, this is what a maintenance officer does the entire time.” People get out after five years. And the reputation right now is that if you want to be a president, go to the Naval Academy. If you want to be a CEO, go to West Point. If you want to be a FedEx pilot, go to the Air Force Academy. And I heard that joke plenty of times, and as funny as it is, I'll admit it, I laughed at it, but like, I don't want that to be the perception of this place, because we produce much, much better leaders than just, pilots, not to poo-poo pilots, but like, CEO versus pilot, like it's, a different game. And so my idea was, how can I highlight that being an airline pilot, a cargo pilot, whatever it is, is not the only avenue to take after commissioning, what else can we do? And that's where I started picking up more perspectives, both on leadership, “What is it like to be a consultant?” I did, you know, definitely lean more towards things that I was interested in, but like equity research, private equity — all these different things, like podcasts, specifically about getting an MBA out of a service academy, all these sort of, like, super tangible things that, because I'm the target audience, I felt would, felt like it would resonate with the cadet wing, and so that was kind of like the motivation moving forward. And you know, it's had so many opportunities for me, like last week. Shout out Ted Robertson behind me, invited me to interview Dr. Ravi Chaudhary, and I'm getting all these super cool opportunities to expand my network and learn what it's like to do things at a more strategic level. And so it's been this really interesting, evolving project over the past two years, and I'll even share this little story. So this summer, I worked a cadet summer research program at Lockheed Martin in D.C. And one of the last days that we were there, they had this quarterly face to face, because it's a global, the corporate strategy arm is a global thing. So they have a like an in person thing every year — or every quarter. And how they started it was, we're gonna talk about just things that you've picked up, whether it's personal life, listen to a podcast, read a book that you wanna share with people. And so I was at the end of this big circle, and I was like, “What am I gonna say?” You know, like, all these people are spouting off this knowledge and wisdom, and I'm sitting here as this intern, trying to come up with something that would be useful to them, and then I actually started thinking. I was like, you know, this podcast changed my perspective on a lot of things, and I get a lot of praise for it, but as much as, like, you know, I acknowledge it was a good thing to help other people expand my own knowledge base of this, it had some downfalls and drawbacks as well. Namely, being I became super fixated on the future, and I was unable to really focus on the present, living in the moment like, get a little dark here, I was a little existential at certain points of time, because I was just constantly thinking future, and I'm like, What am I doing like right now? And it became like a frustrating thing for me, because not only was I interacting with a lot of older people, it was kind of making me feel unrelatable to my peers, and that was bothersome to me, because, you know, I never want to be perceived as this person who's a sycophant, like, just brown-noser and all that sort of stuff. And so it was definitely some drawbacks. And then I, like, brings me to the point of the reason why I started this was that fear. I started because I was scared of not knowing what the future was going to entail. It was this fear of uncertainty. And, you know, reflecting upon that I came into the Academy this, like this confident person and like, where'd that go? Am I not confident? Like the two things that I think if anybody can have will be successful in any realm of life, is perseverance and critical thinking. Those two things, in my opinion, will carry you anywhere. And I felt like I had those things, but I was just discounting them so heavily, to the point that I was like, I need to figure all this stuff out, or else I'm gonna be screwed, when in reality,why am I not just relying on these two things that I know, that I have, you know, maybe you can work in resourcefulness, but I have these two things. Why am I discounting those? And I think that was the big reflection point that I was able to share with the people in this room at this, you know — face to face. And I was like, you know, I had this really big pendulum swing to trying to control everything. And I really don't perceive myself to be a control freak. As, like, a micromanager. I think if you talk to anybody in the squad, they, they won't perceive me that way. But when it comes to my own future, like I want to — in the past — I'm trying to correct it. I'm still not perfect, but I was trying to correct for this. And I'm like, No, that's it's not right. That's not a long term, feasible thing I'm gonna end up burning out, never really living in the moment, never really enjoying things. And so, like that was a big learning lesson from this whole idea.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
And you learned that when you're sitting in that circle, or did you learn that — was that when it kind of culminated into how you articulated it? Or had you already felt that way?
 
Andrew Cormier 41:40
The cadet experience, like I said, is very task-saturating, and so I never feel like I have a time to reflect during the semester. This was about July, like this past July, and so although I was working, it was like four day weeks, so I had a decent amount of time to reflect. I always treat my Christmas breaks and my summer breaks as points to reflect, and because that's the only time I have, like, the bandwidth to. And like that whole time period, like I was just so locked in on — like all this work I have my my notion planner and checking boxes, Life is checking boxes. And it took me, you know, shout out to Cylas Reilly, 100% because as much as we're different — like, he's much more, like, happy go lucky, like super high energy guy — being with him on the C-SERP at Lockheed, he, allowed me to put my hair down a little bit like, just take a little road trip, talk about stuff, not be so analytical about everything. And so I guess that's that point where — I had about month, because this was at the end of it. I was leaving the next day. And so we had about a month to talk about things. I had a month to reflect on it, and then this was something that was — like it had been the first time I'd ever put it to words, I'll say that. It wasn't the first time I was trying to process it, but it was the first time that I was putting it into words.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
How did you feel after you said that?
 
Andrew Cormier
Uh, slightly cathartic. I don't know it is. It's weird because as soon as you put something to words, then you can, like, I feel like understanding is like, if you can talk, if you can think about it, that's like, the lowest level of understanding. If you can talk about it, that's slightly higher. But then writing about it is the highest level. And so, like, I always keep a journal, and I've been trying to write about it, to put it into more concise words. But that was a big — it was kind of like a breakthrough of like, I'm having a higher understanding of this lesson that seems to be apparent in life.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Wow. And I think that's something that our listeners can — and those watching too — can really gravitate toward, because, you know, sometimes we get so caught up in the churn of the “what's next?” and the “do this” and “get here.” And I think an important lesson you just shared with us, and I love that you've learned it earlier on, is the key of reflection and really assessing “where am I?” and “how do I feel about that?” and “what's next?”. So For the Zoomies. Let's talk about that. First off, I mean, you've gotten a lot of praise for it, because they're fantastic, your episodes. What has the cadet wing — how have they embraced it?
 
Andrew Cormier 44:31
You know, I wish Spotify had a little bit better of the data. I can't attach an IP number to a listen. But to be honest, I was never looking for listens. But then as soon as I started growing, I'm, you know, a little bit more tied to it. It's kind of like seeing a lot of likes and stuff on Instagram or whatever.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Affirmations are wonderful.
 
Andrew Cormier 44:53
Yeah, but so I think it was received somewhat well. And I always try to add value to the cadet wing. Some of them I admit are a little bit selfish. They're mostly for me, like I really want to talk to this person. But then I had an episode with the Office of Labor and Economic Analysis about a change in how cadets were going to get matched their AFSCs, and I was thankful that — shout-out to Maj. Ian McDonald. He's the person who reached out for me. He is a representative from OLEA who was like, “Hey, I heard about your podcast. This might be a good episode idea.” And I'm like, “You're a genius. You're a genius.” And so we sat down — him and Col. Joffrion in the economic department. They were—.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Justin Joffrion?
 
Andrew Cormier
Yes, classmate, my upper-classmate. He's ’98.
 
Andrew Cormier
OK, OK. And so we sat down and we walked through how cadets — because the initial, or I guess the legacy system, was OPA, your class, rank, your major, and then your preference. Those were the three things that would get put into this algorithm, this black box, and then you'd be spit out your AFSC. Now, and I think it's still in pilot. Maybe it's confirmed for a Class of ’26 but at least for the ’24/’25 those were, you know, where it was being tested, and it was much more like an open job market, where you actually able to submit a narrative about things that you projects that you've worked on, capstones, research that you've done, and it was super impactful. Because one, I really appreciate the new system, to be honest, because the military can be very — I’ve studied a lot of Austrian economics in my time, so I'm very of the mind, like, free markets, don't tell people what to do, like, they'll pick what's right for them. And so seeing this moving more towards a market structure, I was like, this is a good idea. But being able to share that with the Cadet Wing — that's the highest-listen episode, because I think it really, like, drives value. People don't want to, they want to know how the system works so that they can game the system. And one of my questions on the episode was like, “So, are you worried about people gaming the system? Because they know how it works?” And they're like, “Do it. We want you to get the right job.” And so, yeah, it's been super impactful to me that cadets valued the product that I put out there. And they would value it because it was useful to them. I wouldn't want it to be artificially inflated just for the sake of that affirmation, even though it feels good, but, yeah, it felt good to be able to contribute in that way.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
I love that. So that's the most listened from the cadet perspective, what was been the most rewarding from the podcast seat, from your side of it?
 
Andrew Cormier
Like, most rewarding in terms of—
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Either a guest episode or just the experience of podcasts, okay, I'll let you take it where you'd like.
 
Andrew Cormier
I have a lot of people pose this sort of question to me a lot about, like, who's your favorite episode? Like, who's your favorite guest? And, you know, they, like, kind of hint at, like, all, like, Gen. Clark, like, or anyone with stars was probably a really cool episode. And, you know, it is an honor and a privilege to be able to get an hour on their calendar because they're super busy. They're strategic thinkers. They don't usually have a whole bunch of time on their hands, but they were able to open up their calendar to me, and so it's an honor, and usually I do come away with a lot of practical knowledge from those things. I shouldn't say that those are always the most enjoyable. One of my favorites thus far has been with Julian Gluck, Cosmo. Because, you know, we sit down, same thing with Sam Eckholm, we sit down and we just — it is a little bit of yap-sesh, so maybe it's more for the people who are looking for entertainment than advice or information on the Air Force as a whole. But we just sit down and talk about cadet life. And I really enjoy the evolution of the Academy experience, year over year. And Sam Eckholm, being a relatively recent grad. Cosmo being — I think he's 2010, so it's like, you know, in these sort of 10-year chunks, and then even…
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Is he ‘08 or ‘10?
 
Andrew Cormier
He might be — in that timeframe. Yeah. And even Dr. Chaudhary, which was super fun, because for the first half of the episode, we were just talking about spirit missions. And so usually, with these senior leaders, it's more of “What's the strategic landscape?” “What can cadets take away from this?” But with him, it was like, you know, talking about chickens on the freaking football field and like, going up on Flat Iron. And so I always enjoy those episodes from a personal perspective of really having institutional pride, is seeing the evolution of this place and seeing the ebbs and flows of it. And it's like telling that — it makes me understand that the difficulty of this place and like the perception that the cadet wing is getting softer. It's not something that's been this ever since ’59 it's been this gradual decline, persistently. It's a thing that comes and goes and honestly, we're more-or-less on an uptrend than not, relative to the adversaries that we're facing. So I guess that's a big piece of it is, as much as I really enjoy learning and getting different people's perspectives on, “Oh, what base should I choose given these goals?” Or, you know, “What does a maintenance officer do at Red Flag?”
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Yes, oh, my goodness. Well, I think one of the things that you've highlighted in and this journey of yours is, yes, it's about impact. Yes, it's about, you know, taking care of one another. But there's also this intrinsic piece which is really about relationships, and that's what I hear when you talked about the ones that you really enjoyed most. I think it was that human connection. That’s that thread that connects us.
 
Andrew Cormier
Yeah, I think you hit the hammer on that thing. You know what I’m trying to say.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Yes, no, I'm with you. So, Andrew, what's next for you? Upon graduation, we know you're not going to be a pilot. What are you going to be doing?
 
Andrew Cormier 52:29
I dropped 63 Alpha Acquisition Manager.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
And that's what you wanted?
 
Andrew Cormier
Yes, first pick.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
So you gamed the system properly?
 
Andrew Cormier
Yes. I gamed it properly, yes. And I think the narrative piece of it, I included how I went to Lockheed, and they're very — the project I was working on, was very acquisition-oriented, so I think I really put a lot of emphasis on, “Give me this.”
 
Naviere Walkewicz
“I really, really want this.” I’m so happy for you.
 
Andrew Cormier
Thank you. Thank you. But so we just put in base preferences. That was a pretty long conversation with a lot of people that I had to have.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Including Chloe. Is she…?
 
Andrew Cormier
Yeah, no, she was the main stakeholder outside of me. We probably had three different conversations about it. I'd talk to her first, go get some other input from grads. Talk to her again, more input. Talk to her, and then finally, input. And so, you know, I talked to my sponsor, Maj. Bryce Luken. And the reason I talked to a lot of people that I wanted to be somewhat like, like, I envision myself as them somewhat in the future. You know, they're reservists, entrepreneurial, very like — not sit back 9 to 5, but how are we gonna, you know, improve national security and have our own spin on things, have autonomy over, you know, what we do and our time and so, like, those are the criteria over, like, who I was talking to, so I had a conversation with him. He's like, “You should go to L.A.” I'm like, “Air Force people aren't going to L.A. That's Space Force…” Like, Boston. And so he's like, “Dude, you should go to Boston, MIT, Lincoln Lab.”
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Hopefully you talked to Cosmo as well.
 
Andrew Cormier
I actually haven't, but yeah, I should let him know I ended up putting in Hanscom. But you know Col. Misha, I saw him at the Falcon Foundation dinner, Forrest Underwood. Yes, they were giving me the same like urging me go to Boston. You're a young professional who wants to get his hands dirty. Don't go to, you know, Langley, where — you know you can still be industrious down there, but you'll be under-resourced compared to if you went to Boston.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
See, and that's great feedback that you know maybe others aren't thinking about in their decisions. So I think that's a really great process in the way you approached it. People that are in the ways of where you want to go. And also the important people in your life that you want to make sure stay important.
 
Andrew Cormier
Yeah. I mean, at the end of every single episode on the podcast, I always ask for advice for cadets looking to pursue a similar path. Emphasis on “pursue a similar path.” I get a lot of advice, and not that I think anyone is, you know, basing their advice off of maybe an incomplete conclusion. But when you're getting advice, you really have to understand, what are what is their envisioning or like, how are they envisioning your outcome, and is their envision outcome the same as like, what you want? And so I think getting to your point, I really look — I got the advice. Same thing. This past Sunday, I called up Chase Lane, who went to Langley first. And I think that's why he really stuck out to me. But he urged me to go to Boston. And also, kind of like, walked me through. He's like, you know, Chloe works at Space Foundation. She really wants to be in the space world. And so, she's like, “Let's go to Patrick. Right near Cape Canaveral, Cocoa Beach.” Super cool location, you know. I mean, prayers out to the people in Florida right now. I hope that they're all right. But like, you know, that'd be a good spot. Uh, relative, you know, Boston, wet snow every single day. But you know, he kind of like, Chase, walked me through how I should approach a conversation like this. And so, you know, the other night when I sat down with Chloe, as much as you know, I want to value her perspective and wanting to value all inputs, understand where those inputs come from, and find a middle point, a middle ground for everybody, because the team won't last if we're only valuing certain inputs. And you know, it does take a little bit of convincing, but also more of like, open your eyes to what the opportunity really is. Are you making assumptions about this? Am I making assumptions about this? Let's clear those up. And so that's a sort of conversation that we ended up having. And, you know, she's on board with Boston now and so.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
I think that's wonderful. I think communication is key. Luckily for you, you're big on communication, And no, I think that's wonderful for our listeners, even. You know, yes, there's probably times when you have to make a decision, there's a lead decision maker, maybe in in a partnership or in a relationship, but when you take in all of those perspectives, like you said, I think the end of the day, when you're coming to that decision, you're in a place of transparency and, yeah, you kind of go for it together. So I think that's great lessons for all of our listeners. Andrew, we're going to get to some of the key thoughts that you have, and I also would love for you to share, and you have a limited to think about this, but something that is, you know, unique to you, that you would love our listeners to kind of hear or learn about you. I think that's one of the things that we've been able to pick up in Long Blue Leadership, is it's kind of neat when people just know what's relatable or what they think is really cool. So, give you a second on that. But before we do, I'd like to take a moment and thank you for listening to Long Blue Leadership. This podcast publishes Tuesdays in both video and audio, and is available on all your favorite podcast platforms. Watch or listen to episodes of Long Blue Leadership at long blue leadership.org
 
Naviere Walkewicz 58:38
So Andrew, here we are, and we can go in either order. I think, you know, we always like to make sure our listeners kind of have a way to encapsulate the leadership lessons you want to leave them with that's close to you. But also just kind of, what's the thing you want to leave them with that's all about, Andrew?
 
Andrew Cormier
It's weird talking about myself, to be honest, because I bet I'm always on the other side of the microphone.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Yes. It's much easier asking the questions.
 
Andrew Cormier
Yes. I think one thing that I really wanted to talk about that I guess wasn't outlined in this, was
the regular question of “Why'd you come?” versus “Why'd you stay?” And like I mentioned before, the service piece was why I came, but seeing how I haven't done community service really since high school, the reason why I've been staying is because American ideals are amazing, and they need to be protected. And in order for me to have any say in that, I need to have skin in the game. And that's what I look at my service as, is me gaining skin in the game. And, you know, I just, I am by no means a scholar of American history. Massachusetts Public Education did not teach me about the Alamo, unfortunately, so when I went to San Antonio for the first time, I was learning it. But what they did teach me was about our founding fathers. And, you know, being from Massachusetts, Plymouth Rock, it's where the Pilgrims landed, and what it really took for people to come across an entire ocean, fight tyranny. Like ask me, “How do you think I like my tea?”
 
Naviere Walkewicz
How do you like your tea?
 
Andrew Cormier
In the harbor. You know what I mean? Yeah, like, there's this sort of state and then largely national pride as — it's audacious what has transpired over the past 250 years, and I just want Americans not to take that for granted. I recently watched Civil War. Have you seen that movie? It's like, kind of a journalist’s take on what would happen if, you know, states seceded. And it's like a, it's like a reminder of, “Oh, this actually happened. There was a civil war,” but like, you know, we were able to remand it, and like those reminders, tell me that this, this should not be taken for granted. And so, you know, with the kind of, like national landscape, the whole climate, I just really urge people to try to understand other people's perspectives and listen more than they talk, because those pieces for me, like I'm a pretty staunch capitalist, but I recently bought TheCommunist Manifesto. This is probably gonna get clipped or something, but I bought it, and I still haven't started reading it yet, because this semester’s been crazy. But I want to understand where these people are coming from.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Critical thinking.
 
Andrew Cormier
I want to understand where these ideas stem from. And I want to listen, and I want other people to listen as well. I want a more general understanding of the ideas that are guiding all of this change. What are they actually rooted in? And I think that understanding will make it much more clear as to like, a direction that we should all head in rather than, you know, all this public descent over very more or less menial things that are petty and not worth having the uproar that is ensuing. So I don't know, I guess. I don't know exactly where I was going with that, but my national and state pride gives me this urge to go, in some way, shape or form, defend these ideals and to encourage other people to look at — you know, I didn't mention a whole bunch about Northfield, Mount Herman, but I went to four schools in four years, Monty, Tech, NMH, Marion Military Institute and then here, all four different years, Massachusetts, Alabama, Colorado — in, you know, Massachusetts, my hometown, it's blue collar, NMH, super liberal. I was very international. I was in class with a Malaysian prince. I was exposed to very different perspectives there than I was when I was in Alabama. Here, there's people from all corners of the United States, and so there's this expanding perspective that allows me to be like, what we have here really shouldn't be taken for granted. I think I'm just beating a dead horse at this point, but I just really want Americans to think a little bit more and, like, listen a little bit more and understand a little bit more. I'm off my soapbox.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 1:04:27
I'm really glad you shared that perspective. I mean, I think it's an insight into you know, your deeper calling, and, like you said, why you stay but the threads of everything you've shared have played into that part of that of who you are at the fabric of Andrew. So, any additional leadership nuggets you want to leave with our listeners?
 
Andrew Cormier 1:04:53
I don't want to defer to other things that I said earlier in the conversation, but it's not about you. It's not about you. I have a couch in my room. It's like,
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Tell me more about that.
 
Andrew Cormier
It’s a squadron commander privilege. I have my own room. I have all these like privileges. I have up top parking. It's very like ivory tower-centric. And that's like the perception of this. But it's not about me at all. It is about going and defending my friend. It is about when permanent party is directing frustration towards me, how do I not pass that frustration onto them? How do I make sure that the voices below me are heard. How do we reopen Hap’s? Those are the jobs that are mine, and that involves no, like — it's my job, that I think that's the main thing. When you're a leader, it's your job. There shouldn't be any extra, you know, kudos given to you. Everyone has their own piece in the puzzle, and just because your face is more prominent than others does not mean that the mission is any less doable with one piece missing or another piece missing. So I guess it's not about you, it's about the team.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 1:06:23
So, For the Zoomies, just to kind of recap, where is it headed, and how can they find it, our listeners?
 
Andrew Cormier 1:06:33
Spotify podcasts, or Apple podcasts, I guess that's where you can find it. I'm not gonna lie; it's been on a little bit of a hiatus. I've been returning to posting, but had to give myself a break at the beginning of the semester. To be honest, I'm looking to just get to 100 episodes upon graduation and calling it a repository. I'm looking forward to some of the upcoming guests. I reached out to Gen. Mike Minihan the other day on LinkedIn, and he got back to me, and I was like, wow, so maybe he might be on the show by the time this is released. But yeah, I kind of want cadets to understand more. There's a lot of things that are advertised about pilots, but there's more out there. And I want this also be a testament of you don't need to do something in your extracurricular time that is an Academy club. Cadets can do their own thing. Yeah, I hope that answers the question.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
That's outstanding. Is there anything that I didn't ask you that you want to share before we close out this amazing episode?
 
Andrew Cormier
No, I think, I think I'm good. I've been talking way too long.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Well, it's that, well, we want you to talk because you've been our guest. But Andrew, it's been a pleasure.
 
Andrew Cormier
It's been a really — I didn't say this in the beginning, but really, thank you for having me on. It means a lot to me that, you know, I'm the first cadet here, and I don't know what the plan is moving forward, but it means a lot to me that you saw enough in me to put me in company with all the other guests that you have on the show so far, and so I just hope you know it's pressure for me not to do anything to let you guys down.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Well, I think you being who you are, you've already not let us down. You're amazing. Thank you so much.
 
 
KEYWORDS
Air Force Academy, leadership, cadet experience, community service, podcasting, military career, personal growth, mentorship, squadron commander, humanitarian efforts, Air Force Academy, leadership, career paths, podcasting, personal growth, cadet community, national pride, decision making, leadership lessons
 
 
 
The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation
 
 

Dr. Ravi Chaudhary, Assistant Secretary of the Air Force for Energy Installations and Environment, is a leader who has taught his team to, "Eat no for breakfast." He lives by a value he learned from his mother at an early age: "If you do your full duty, the rest will take care of itself."
 
SUMMARY
In this edition of Long Blue Leadership, Dr. Chaudhary discusses his role in modernizing and reoptimizing Air Force installations to withstand kinetic, cyber, economic, and extreme weather threats. He emphasizes the importance of ruggedizing installations for the Great Power Competition. Dr. Chaudhary shares his background, including his upbringing in Minneapolis and his parents' immigrant journey, and highlights the values instilled in him. He also discusses his work on the implementation of microgrids and microreactors to enhance energy resilience at critical installations like Eielson Air Force Base.
 
5 QUOTES
"If you do your full duty, the rest will take care of itself." - This quote from Dr. Chaudhary's mother reflects the importance of dedication and doing one's job well.
"We eat no for breakfast." - This quote highlights Dr. Chaudhary's team's determination to not accept limitations and push boundaries.
"Love what you do. Love our nation." - Dr. Chaudhary emphasizes the importance of passion and patriotism in leadership.
"America is not about what goes on entirely in Washington. It's about neighbors. It's about what you do for your neighbors." - This quote reflects Dr. Chaudhary's belief in the power of community and service.
"Get out of the way and let them in." - Dr. Chaudhary's advice on enabling the next generation of leaders to excel.
 
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CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction to Dr. Ravi Chaudhary and His Role
03:07 The Importance of Air Force Installations
06:08 Dr. Chaudhary's Early Life and Family Background
09:03 Lessons from Family: Service and Community
11:52 Reflections on the Air Force Academy Experience
14:54 Leadership Lessons from Cadet Days
18:01 The Role of Innovation in the Air Force
20:48 Strategic Imperatives for Future Operations
23:59 Optimism for the Future of the Air Force Academy
25:07 A Lifelong Dream: Becoming a Pilot
27:31 Launching Innovations: The GPS Program
28:36 Inspiring the Next Generation of Pilots
30:14 Adapting to Modern Challenges in Aviation
32:40 Navigating Change: The Evolution of Standards
34:57 Learning from Failure: A Personal Journey
35:42 The Role of the Assistant Secretary
38:55 Preparing for Great Power Competition
41:09 Innovative Energy Solutions for the Future
44:58 Leadership Lessons and Final Thoughts
 
5 KEYS TO LEADERSHIP
Embrace failures as opportunities for growth. Dr. Chaudhary shared how his failures, like failing a check ride, ultimately helped him grow as a leader.
Keep moving forward, even in the face of adversity. Dr. Chaudhary emphasized the importance of keeping your "legs moving" and not giving up when faced with challenges.
Leverage the bonds formed with your team. Dr. Chaudhary highlighted how the bonds he formed with his classmates at the Academy carried over into his missions, demonstrating the power of camaraderie.
Empower and enable the next generation. Dr. Chaudhary expressed optimism about the capabilities of the current cadets and emphasized the need to get out of their way and let them excel.
Maintain a service-oriented, patriotic mindset. Dr. Chaudhary's passion for serving his country and community was evident throughout the interview, underscoring the importance of this mindset in effective leadership.
 
ABOUT DR. CHAUDHARY ’93
BIO
Dr. Ravi I. Chaudhary is the Assistant Secretary of the Air Force for Energy, Installations, and Environment, Department of the Air Force, the Pentagon, Arlington, Virginia. Dr. Chaudhary is responsible for the formulation, review and execution of plans, policies, programs, and budgets to meet Air Force energy, installations, environment, safety, and occupational health objectives.Dr. Chaudhary most recently served as the acting Deputy Assistant Secretary of the Navy for Energy. Prior to this role, he served as the Director of Advanced Programs and Innovation, Office of Commercial Space Transportation, at the Federal Aviation Administration. He provided technical leadership and oversight for the commercial space industry, to include research and development activities to support Department of Transportation and White House National Space Council initiatives.Prior to this role, he served as Executive Director, Regions and Center Operations, at the FAA. In this role, he was responsible for leadership, integration and execution of aviation operations in nine regions nationwide. Dr. Chaudhary served as second in command to the Deputy Assistant Administrator and was responsible for providing Department of Transportation and FAA-wide services in the areas of operations, safety, policy, congressional outreach and emergency readiness for the National Aerospace System.Dr. Chaudhary commissioned in the Air Force in 1993 upon graduation from the United States Air Force Academy. He completed 21 years of service in a variety of command, flying, engineering and senior staff assignments in the Air Force. As a C-17 pilot, he conducted global flight operations, including numerous combat missions in Afghanistan and Iraq, as well as a ground deployment as Director of the Personnel Recovery Center, Multi-National Corps, Iraq. As a flight test engineer, he was responsible for flight certification of military avionics and hardware for Air Force modernization programs supporting flight safety and mishap prevention. Earlier in his career, he supported space launch operations for the Global Positioning System and led third stage and flight safety activities to ensure full-operational capability of the first GPS constellation. As a systems engineer, he supported NASA’s International Space Station protection activities to ensure the safety of NASA Astronauts. Dr. Chaudhary is a DoD Level III Acquisition Officer and has published numerous articles in future strategy, aircraft design, business transformation and space operations.
 - Bio Copy Credit to AF.MIL
 
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FULL TRANSCRIPT
OUR SPEAKERSGuest, The Honorable Dr. Ravi I. Chaudhary ’93  |  Host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz ’99
 
Naviere Walkewicz 00:00
My guest today is the assistant secretary of the Air Force for energy installations and environment, the Honorable Dr. Ravi Chaudhary USAFA, Class of ’93. Against the backdrop of Great Power Competition, Dr. Chaudhry leads the modernization and reoptimization of the Air Force to ruggedize our installations across the globe against what he describes as kinetic threats, as well as non-kinetic cyber, economic and extreme weather threats. He has served as acting deputy assistant secretary of the Navy for energy; the director of advanced programs and innovation, Office of Commercial Space Transportation at the Federal Aviation Administration; and he has led in the commercial space industry research and development in the support of the Department of Transportation and the White House, National Space Council. We'll talk with Dr. Chaudhry about his life before, during and after the Academy. We'll discuss his role, modernizing and re-optimizing initiatives and strategies for the Air Force. We'll touch on leading through new and changing threats and making decisions with climate in mind, and we'll discuss Dr. Chaudhary's work with the secretary of the Air Force and leadership at the base, command and warfighter levels. Finally, we'll ask Dr. Chaudhary to share advice for developing and advanced leaders. Dr. Chaudhary, welcome to Long Blue Leadership. We're so glad to have you.
 
Dr. Chaudhary 01:18
Navier, thank you so much. Thank you for that way too kind of an introduction, and I only have one regret. On this weekend, did you have to mention that I was in the Navy for a little while? You just about blew me away. I know you've got some white clear liquid here. I'm just about ready to find out what the clear liquid is.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Cheers.
 
Dr. Chaudhary 01:40
Off we go, and we'll let our audience speculate, and depending on how it goes, we'll critique ourselves. Just an honor to be here, and congrats to you on your career of service in the Air Force.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Thank you so much. This is truly a pleasure. And I think what we love about Long Blue Leadership is it's really about our listeners getting to know you. And we have so many different listeners that are really excited. So let's start with the hat. I've noticed we've got a hat on right here. “Air Force Installations: Best in the World.” Let's talk about it.
 
Dr. Chaudhary
Yeah, let's talk about that. Because we do have the best installations in the world. Our installations are power projection platforms. Every Air Force installation has a mission that begins and terminates with it. If you go all the way back in our history, Gen. Hap Arnold had this to say about our installations: “Air bases are the determining factor in air operations.” Think about that. Think about why we need to make sure that our installations are ready to go, and why we invest in them as an Air Force. It's because you can't get the jets out of town unless they have a good runway that works, unless they are hardened and ready to absorb the types of blows that have come to us in the past. And I'm telling you right now that we've got to be ready for this future, in a decade of consequence in Great Power Competition. We've got to focus on ruggedizing and ensuring that our installations are as survivable as they ever have been.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Absolutely. Well, I can say that that is certainly true, having been at bases where we've seen some challenges, it does halt and sometimes stop operations. So yeah, you're right. Yeah. So it's incredible the work you're doing, and we're going to talk about that today. But before we get there, can we rewind the clock a little bit?
 
Dr. Chaudhary
Please don't rewind it too far, but I have a feeling you will.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Just a little bit. Just enough to kind of get to know who Ravi was as a young boy. What were you like growing up? Tell us about your family and where you grew up.
 
Dr. Chaudhary
That's cool. So, I was born and raised in Minneapolis, Minnesota. I grew up there all my life. My parents came from India in 1960s and they always dreamed to do the unusual, it was the American Dream that brought them to this country. And they had kids, you know, and growing up as a South Asian American, you know, people in community would be like, “Hey, you know, why are you going to join the military? Why are you going to, you know, once you just be a doctor or engineer or lawyer or something like that?” Kind of fit the stereotype. But I always thought about it this way: If my parents would give up everything they wanted in their life, their language, their culture, everything to pursue their dreams, wouldn't they want that for their children as well? And so off I went to the Air Force Academy, and the values that my parents instilled in me rang true just about every single day. In fact, when I grow up, my mom would always tell me this. She'd say, “You know, if you do your full duty, the rest will take care of itself.”
 
Naviere Walkewicz
That sounds very familiar to me.
 
Dr. Chaudhary
And she would say, in the Sanskrit word for that — and my faith tradition is Hinduism — the Sanskrit word for that is “dharm.” If you follow your dharm, everything will take care of itself. And lo and behold, I'm getting choked up a little bit, because when I showed up and opened that Contrails and saw that quote, I knew that Mom and Dad had prepared me, had prepared me for the challenges that would come, not just the Academy, but everything from 9/11 to deploying to Iraq to raising a family and making sure they have everything they need to prosper. So, all that brought me to an institution that honestly brought out the flavor and gave me in the same opportunity that this country gave my father. So, it's just been a pinch-me career, and it's just an honor to be here with you today and with the entire AOG team talking about this.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 05:36
That's amazing. I mean, I, thinking about what you just said, that your parents came and they pursued a dream. What was that like in your household? What did that look like?
 
Dr. Chaudhary 05:45
Here's what it looked like. My dad — he actually came to this country with about $165, $80 of which went to his tuition. He was at University of Missouri, and then he eventually went to University of Minnesota. The rest he used to get a house and fill the fridge. And so, when he was looking for an opportunity to serve, he wanted to be in the U.S. Department of Agriculture and serve as a fed and so he didn't get that chance. So, what he did, he literally drove, put me and my brother and my mom in a car and drove to Washington. When he drove to Washington, he dropped us off at the Lincoln Memorial and walked up the stairs of the Capitol. Two senators from Minnesota, one was walking out, Sen. Walter Mondale. He said hello to him. He didn't know him from Adam. And then he went to the office of Hubert Humphrey and he sat down with him, and he told his story to Hubert Humphrey and Hubert Humphrey said, “This is what America is all about.” And he was kind enough to give my dad a shot in Minneapolis. And he spent his entire career, 25 years, as a federal inspector in the U.S. Department of Agriculture.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
My goodness.
 
Dr. Chaudhary
It's an incredible story. But you know what? It all came together about a year and a half ago when I was confirmed and during my swearing, and it was honored to have Sec. Kendall swear me in, but to have my dad walk up the front steps of the Pentagon with my mom and I. We go up the stairs, and I said, “Dad, would you turn around for a second?” And he turned around. I said, “You know, you can see the Lincoln Memorial and you can see the Capitol.” And I said, “Look what you've done in one generation.” That is the embodiment of the American dream. And as he was kind of — I'm getting choked up — he wiped the tears from his eyes. He realized that that that what this country has given to us is something that we've got to always think about giving back and giving back, and that's really what my career has always been about, giving back to the country that has given my family everything.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 07:59
That is amazing. Wow. I mean, I'm almost without words, because I can see what your dad has instilled in you, made possible, but instilled in you as a servant leader as well. I'm just… that's pretty impressive. So, tell me about your mom, because it sounds like she also instilled some pretty incredible traits in you and some beliefs in how to treat people. What did that look like in, her leadership in your life?
 
Dr. Chaudhary 08:26
What can I say about my mom? She's a pillar of the community back in Minneapolis. She runs a nonprofit called Seva. In Hindi, seva means service, to serve, serve your fellow citizens, serve your nation. And again, I told you about her, her enduring quote, “If you do your full duty, the rest will take care of itself.” So, in that nonprofit, she is actually bringing cultural-specific services, health services, to the Asian American community. One thing she did during Covid was incredible. She pulled together a meal team, and she served somewhere around 20,000 seniors. And it wasn't just Asian Americans, anybody in the Minneapolis community that was struggling, that couldn't get food, that was having a tough time. And then, as you know, after the George Floyd tragedy occurred, the town, the city went through a tough time, and there was an area right around one of the police stations where the riots were going on and everybody was fleeing when. When the community was fleeing, she was mobilizing her team to go in. They were going in and they were rescuing people from shelters to get them to a safe place. And two days later, she brought a team into the community that was still smoldering and set up meal stations to just give people sandwiches, bread, whatever — to just make everybody feel good and move forward, and that's what America is about. Sometimes we get so wrapped up in the times and differences, but we realize that America is more than just Washington. America is about neighbors and neighbors caring for each other. So, where did I learn that? I learned that from my mom, but the Air Force Academy brought it out, and I applied that every single day, whether it was a mission launching GPSs, doing engineering — tough engineering problems, or flying missions into the CENTCOM AOR, where we had to bring crews to bear to execute incredible missions. And so, reflecting on that — boy, you're really tearing me up today…
 
Naviere Walkewicz
No, not at all…
 
Dr. Chaudhary
…because you're bringing this all out of my heart, and it's just an honor to be here and humbling to tell the story. But I know that there are thousands and thousands of grads out there that have just as inspiring stories, and that's why I love to come to AOG. That's why I like to spend time with our cadets today, which was just as incredible. I went down to Jacks Valley and got to see the assault course as well. Luckily, I didn't have too many flashbacks.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
I was going to say, did you have your rubber ducky with you?
 
Dr. Chaudhary
Yeah, I did not. They didn’t push me through it, but the demo was incredible. And I know our secretary was equally impressed with the cadets and the caliber of students that are here, the caliber of our cadets, and how I'm so optimistic for the future of our Air Force and Space Force.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 11:33
Absolutely. And I can share, based off of what you shared about your mom and dad, there's no reason why you're [not] able to take on a job that almost seems impossible with the scope and breadth of what you're responsible for. So, I can't wait to get into that as well. Can we go to when you're at the Academy? I want to know more about you as a cadet, because as interesting as you are as an adult, what were you like as a cadet?
 
Dr. Chaudhary 11:54
There’s a lot that I really shouldn't disclose. Okay, so we've got to be really, really careful. So, me and my classmates, we have this thing called “mutually assured destruction.” You know stories about me, I know stories about you. Just leave it there. But let me tell you, the Academy was just the honor of a lifetime. But you know what — going through it with your classmates is something. I was just having lunch with our cadets today. I was a grad of Delta Tau Deuce, and to spend time with them and tell them stories, and hear about their stories, about what Deuce is like these days, was absolutely just, I was just blown away with it. But yep, I was primarily in Deuce. I had the just pleasure of beaing a squadron commander and having peers that really care for each other, peers that I keep in touch with. To this very day, I have them up on text.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Oh, wow.
 
Dr. Chaudhary
And we share with each other. We have challenges. We go through it together, but I will tell you one story about why your cadet story matters, and you don't realize it until the balloon goes up. When I graduated from pilot training, I graduated essentially the day after 9/11 and I was actually in the planning room when 9/11 happened, and within a few weeks — I did my check ride that day — within a few weeks, I was at Charleston Air Force Base, and my squadron commander had me look out the window and said, “We don't have time to mission qual you. We don't have enough pilots. We're going to marry you up with a crew to go down range.” And you know what he did? He married me up with two people, one who was my classmate from the Class of 1993,
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Really?
 
Dr. Chaudhary
Two was a member of my squadron from Deuce, and he was a new aircraft commander. We had an experienced first pilot, and I didn't know nothing from nothing. I was a brand-new co-pilot. And so, getting ready for that, for those missions, a new environment for me, required something that our squadron commander knew that if I put three Academy graduates together, the bond that they've had in their years was going to carry them through toughest conditions, in unknown conditions. And sure enough, we clicked and did well. But to anybody who's a current cadet and listening in and wondering, “Hey, is this bonding — is what's going on now, the time that we have together here in the Academy going to amount to anything?” I'm here to tell you, it does and through my own life experiences, and quite honestly, in a number of missions, we fly working it together as a team. The bonds we create as cadets carry over for decades.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 14:54
So maybe you can share some of those bonding moments at the Academy. You said you were a squadron commander. What were some of the lessons you learned from a leadership aspect, in leading your peers, but also while still trying to bond with them?
 
Dr. Chaudhary 15:08
Yeah, when you look back, sometimes you're separated by age and rank, right? You got age and you got rank and your peer groups kind of set you that way. At the Academy, it's completely different because your peers, as a senior, you're all peers and colleagues, and to take on a leadership role is what I would say is the toughest challenge of all. To lead a team of peers and colleagues can be challenging. And there's challenges that really kind of come with everything like that, but to me, you can't do it without collaboration, without consulting folks and being inclusive in how you give people a voice. Now the jury is out — I'm not going to judge whether I was successful or not. Probably not, you know? But I will say we did one thing: It was gonna be we were gonna be the athletic squadron of the year. We were a beast. In fact, we decided that we were gonna go for one thing: We were the athletic squadron. And so, we did.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
That’s impressive!
 
Dr. Chaudhary
We kicked some serious buttt. So, back in the day, you do what was called a sweep. So, if you swept all your sports and intramurals that day, you would, the next day, you would get Mitch’s Mountains. And so, the lore of Mitch’s Mountains was incredible. And today, interestingly enough, we had what I would call Mitch’s Mountain version 2.0 — probably half the calories and twice the caffeine. I don't know what it is. But I actually whipped out a picture of an old Mitch’s Mountain. And I show them, they're like, it was really funny, because to see the look in their eyes and to see an original Mitch’s Mountain, it was like, oh, you know they looked at and they're like, “That's what a Mitch’s…” And they're like, “There's an Oreo cookie on top!” I'm like, for us, “Ok, this is a nice 2.0” and everything, like you gotta go back to…
 
Naviere Walkewicz 17:05
So, how many of those did you get? If you were actually the athletic squadron, you must have swept multiple days.
 
Dr. Chaudhary 17:12
You see the love handles on me right now? That was the one challenge. Because, you know, [you‘ve] got to stay in shape. But we kicked some serious butt; we would sweep all the time. I was actually on the water polo team…
 
Naviere Walkewicz 17:25
…we share that. I did not enjoy it. It sounds like you might.
 
Dr. Chaudhary 17:30
I don't know. So, I'm a decent swimmer. I'm pretty good. Grew up in Minnesota, tons of lakes. I could say I'm a decent swimmer, but I can tell you I am not a water polo player. So, what they used me for in water polo…
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Were you the buouy?
 
Dr. Chaudhary
I was the anti-buoy, because whoever was the good player, they'd say, “Go and put your arms over that one and get them underwater,” so that our fellow water polo teammate could go in and score. And so, probably one of my most beloved plaques in my life is my water polo plaque because we were Wing champs.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Oh, my goodness!
 
Dr. Chaudhary
We ran the tables and were Wing champs, and that plaque still sits on my desk. It’s one of my most beloved things. You know, my wife, she's getting ready to toss it. I'm like, “No, no, not that!”
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Not the water polo plaque!
 
Dr. Chaudhary
She's like, “Oh, what about this graduation plaque from the Academy?” You can get rid of that, but don't get rid of my water polo plaque. That is beloved. So anyways, I was asking cadets today, “What's Deuce like?” I'm like, “So are you guys a training squadron?”
 
Naviere Walkewicz
What are they like?
 
Dr. Chaudhary
They're like, “We're the standards squadron.” And I'm like, “Wow, that's impressive.” I'm like, “What about Mach One? Are they the training?” So, they're like, “Mach One. Nah, not really.” They're like, “We're No. 1 in SAMIs. We're No. 1 is…? I'm like, “Oh, wow, they still have SAMIs and stuff like that.” Have fun. Yeah, that was a haze for me. Triple threats were always a haze, yes, so I never liked that, because well…
 
Naviere Walkewicz 18:49
Maybe the Deuce team does now.
 
Dr. Chaudhary 18:53
Mach One, they loved it. I’ve got friends from Mach One. They're gonna kill me, but yeah, they love it. They're all into it. Cleaning their rooms and Deuce would be on the corner going, “Would Mach One please go to bed?” So anyway, sorry. But yeah, it was an interesting time, you know, talking with some of our cadets.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 19:26
I love these stories. So, were you this happy as a cadet?
 
Dr. Chaudhary 19:31
No, I was not a happy cadet. I was a surviving kid. I was trying to get through the next day. And honestly, to me, it was always a wonder to be there, and I was always grateful for being there to serve. I was in a tough major, aero major, and honestly, it didn't come right away to me. And so I was not one of those sterling cadets that just rocks the house and everything. I was on the Comm List for a good portion of the time, but the academics took some time for me. I spent a lot of time in the aero lab. And, you know, the cool thing is, …  I did projects and drag reduction, and we we tested these winglets on the tips of wings, and we did flow visualization. I had this professor. His name was Tom Yechout, and I was talking to some aero majors today. They're like, “You know, Tom Yechout?” And I'm like…
 
Naviere Walkewicz
He's still there.
 
Dr. Chaudhary
“He teaches controls here” I go, “Well, he taught me flight controls as well.” But he supervised me, and one time, I think, maybe at the last reunion, he brought me to the cabinet, and he opened up the cabinet and he showed me the hardware that we used for our project.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 20:39
From your class?
 
Dr. Chaudhary 20:43
Yeah.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
That’s amazing!
 
Dr. Chaudhary
And here's why I'm telling you that: When in my interview with Sec. Kendall, he sat me down and he was talking about, “Hey, in your in your team, we're doing some drag reduction activities.” And he's like, “What do you know about blended wing body aircraft?” And it turns out, not only had I done some research on that, I had done a project at Staff College and to me, you know, my message to cadets out there who are working on a project who are wondering, “Hey, is this going to amount to anything? Does this matter?” I'm here to tell you that it does, because the type of work that goes on at this Academy is literally out of this world. We got folks who are working with SpaceX. I went down and that we're actually doing a project called the blended wing aircraft, which is like a big flying manta ray. It's going to reduce fuel consumption by roughly 30% to reduce fuel for fuel consumption across our Air Force and extend our range.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
How are we going to do that?
 
Dr. Chaudhary
Well, we're going to build a prototype in 2027. One of my sections is operational energy, and we have a team dedicated to reducing drag on aircraft, finding efficiencies. Why is this important? Well, it's because in Great Power Competition, we know that our adversaries are going to come after our logistics and fuel — our resources. And as a logistician, you know that. Our adversaries are targeting our installations, they're going to target our fuel resources. So, what's the best thing we can do? We can be as efficient as we can with our fuel and flying C-17s, is one thing you get to know real quick that if you land at an austere location, you're going to drain that fuel bladder almost instantly. And what does that mean? That means less sorties. That's less fire missions if you're flying Apache’s out of there. That means less fuel for generators if you lose power. That means less ability to get your CAPs in the air, and we've got to embody that as a department and be ready for what that challenge holds for us. So getting efficient with our field, to me, isn't something that we're going to do because we're nice. We're going to do it because it's going to be an imperative. It's going to be a strategic imperative, and we've got to be ready for that. And so, we've been working hard at those things. The blended wing body aircraft is a long-term thing that it's been out there for a long time, but we've got to proof it. And so, it's really cool…
 
Naviere Walkewicz
It’s almost full-circle for you.
 
Dr. Chaudhary
Yeah, it's incredible. And we just were at this, at the plant for Jet Zero. We did a visit there to spend some time with them and look at look at their production facility. And what do I see when I walk in the conference room? Five cadets sitting on the end of the table, learning, taking notes, interacting with the top systems engineers. And interestingly enough, one of those cadets had come and visited me and spent the summer — actually, three of them. She was part of a team of three that came and visited my organization and worked on the impacts of strategic temperature changes and how it will affect payloads for tanker aircraft. And so, they did this research, presented me this paper, and now here I am seeing them at industry being on the leading edge. And to me — let me tell you that filled me with so much optimism and excitement for the future, and most importantly, what we're producing here at the Air Force Academy, a top-notch engineering school that is regarded across the industry. So, a little turn to academics there, but big shout out to what we're doing across our academic programs. I just think we're on the right track, and we need to keep up the momentum.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 24:30
No, that's huge. I was actually going to ask you, how are you leveraging some of our cadets in some of the things you're doing? But it sounds like they're already doing it.
 
Dr. Chaudhary 24:40
Check! Done. They're rocking the house. Just, just leading the way. It's awesome.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 24:43
That's amazing. Yeah. So, let's talk about — and I'm really curious — so, after you graduate the Academy, did you know you always wanted to be a pilot, by the way? Did you know you wanted to fly?
 
Dr. Chaudhary 24:50
I can't remember a day where I wasn't drawing airplanes. And you're asking me about when I was younger. You know, “What kind of kid were you?” I was a kid who was drawing airplanes. OK, I was the kid with the airplane books. I was a kid who was checking out every single airplane book and library and learning about them and trying to understand them and wanting to know more. And so naturally, it was just — I can't think of a day where I didn't want to be an aerospace engineer, be a pilot. And you know, sometimes the ebb and flow of demand for the Air Force —there was a time of reduction in pilots for the for the Academy, and I didn't get that opportunity then and it was a bummer. But you know, if you do your full duty, the rest will take care of itself. And so, I landed at Los Angeles Air Force Base where we launched this program. I got to launch rocket programs. And you may have heard of this particular payload: It's called GPS.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 25:44
I might have heard of that one, yes…
 
Dr. Chaudhary 25:47
…and it was the first time we were doing it. And we're young lieutenants, and we're at Los Angeles Air Force Base, and I was getting the responsibility for third-stage engines and ordnance systems and some of the avionics, and my boss said, “We don't have time. We're launching rockets every single month. I need you to go out to this corporation called Thiokol, and I want you to buy that rocket.” And by the way, he said it in a way that was like, “Don't screw this up,” right?
 
Naviere Walkewicz
The undertone was there.
 
Dr. Chaudhary
Yeah, we’ve had that don't-screw-it-up moment. And so that was one of them. And so, the one thing that I remember is that our Academy demands a lot, and it demands a lot for a reason. Because leaders will be demanding a lot of brand new officers. Now the jury's out as to how well I did, but we had three we had three successful missions, and we delivered full operational capabilities for our department. And to me, I look back on that. I, believe it or not, still keep in touch with the captain who welcomed me, who brought me on the team and, in 2018, I got the incredible opportunity to let the last Delta II rocket go. And I brought my wife and my daughter with me, and that kind of brought the whole band back together. And it was cool to have kind of the old space cowboys and in the room again going, “Well, let's, let's let this rocket go for one last time.”
 
Naviere Walkewicz
That is really cool.
 
Dr. Chaudhary
And the best part of it was, after that rocket went and you felt the rumble — the rumble of a rocket, there's nothing like it in the world. When you feel the rumble go into your stomach — I leaned over my daughter. I go, “What do you think?” She said, “I am doing that.”
 
Naviere Walkewicz 27:34
I was just going to ask you, did it bleed over into your daughter?
 
Dr. Chaudhary 27:38
Now, she's a cadet at Georgia Tech. She just finished field training, and of course, like every good Academy graduate should do, buck the system. So, she bucked the system with her dad and said, “I'm gonna do ROTC and go to Georgia Tech. So, good luck this weekend against Navy. I'll kind of vote for you, but just want to let you know the Academy is a lot easier than Georgia Tech.” So, she and I jaw back and forth, but watching her grow has been really cool. And I got a chance to take her up and fly and get her ready for her career. She wants to be a pilot. And let me tell you, we got nothing on this next generation. They are ready for technology. They are ready for the leading edge, and we've just got to enable them. Honestly, we've got to get the hell out of the way and let them in. There's one situation, we had new avionics on the aircraft. I won't bore you with the details, but it allows you to deconflict from traffic. It's a GPS-based instrument, and I was kind of flying with her one time a few years ago, and I said, “All right, well, this is what is so, you know that little piece, you know 2,000 below you, positive means 2,000 above you. It's closing it…” She's like, “Dad, Dad, Dad, stop, stop!”
 
Naviere Walkewicz 28:58
She knew…
 
Dr. Chaudhary 29:00
She knew how to interact with that technology, and honestly, I didn't. I was learning how to interact with that technology. So, we've got to really make sure that we're blazing a path for our next generation, but at the same time, make sure that that we're not getting in their way. And I think sometimes we do that as grads. We’re like, “I was like this when I was there…” You know? I was at Mitchell Hall today, and I saw the 0-96 up there and it's memorialized. And I walked by that thing…
 
Naviere Walkewicz 29:32
Did you scan the QR code to fill one out?
 
Dr. Chaudhary 29:33
Yeah, I did not do the QR code. I was like, that's too much for me. But when you look at it, you know, I thought, I'm like, that's probably where that thing ought to be right now. It's a great remembrance of why it's important, why standards are important, and then the example of how it paid off in combat conditions and saved a life was pretty important. But I'll be honest with you, we find other ways today with this next generation. I can remember flying one mission and we lost SATCOMMS with a particular field, and we were roughly maybe six hours out for Iraq in the combat zone, and we didn't know the status of the field. And one of the things you need to do is make sure the field's not under attack. So, before we did that, we're like, “Hey, how do we get our 30-minute… You know, it just wasn't happening. But you know what we're doing. We had brevity codes. And all along the line, all the C-17s that were lined up miles after miles going all the way back to Azerbaijan at 30,000 feet. We're all on. We're communicating. … We're using brevity code, so, we're not giving anything away. We're using our brevity code, and we're saying this is the status of the field. And we're relaying, we're literally relaying a half world away. That's a testament to our pilot corps, testament to duty. And so it's really in the spirit of that 0-96 there that we've adopted. So, when people say, “Oh, that tradition is going to ruin us, you know, we're going to lose standards.” I could tell you that, even though we got rid of that thing, that we're still an effective force. And I think we have to understand that a little more and as we kind of move through a period of change at USAFA — I was talking to our cadets about, “Hey, what do you think about the changes?” and, “Yeah, well, restrictions, but I understand on the importance.” I'm going to hearken back to 1991 or so, when the first Gulf War kicked off, and we were cadets when that thing kicked off, and almost instantly we moved into BDUs. We started wearing those every day. We started creating the warfighter mindset. We sealed off to make sure that we had good security. We canceled a lot of passes, and you  know what we did? We moved from a fourth-class system to a four-class system. Sound familiar? Sound familiar? That was after the war kicked off. Think about that. After the war kicked off. Our superintendent is trying to do it before the war kicks off, to make sure that we're ready, ready to fight the fight and get into it. So, I have a lot of respect for our superintendent and taking this step. I do agree that we've got to get execution right. Sometimes you get some growing pains with those things, but I think we've got to step back in the grad community and digest a little bit and get behind some of the changes that have been going on. And I was talking to some cadets last night, I go, “What do you think of this?” And they're like, “We understand it. It hurts a little bit.” Because the expectations … the environment that we're in has now changed. And you know, honestly, I'll shoot straight from the hip and say that sometimes it feels like the goal post is being moved on you, because you meet one standard, and then they move again. Yeah, you know, things get tough, but we're a resilient institution, and when you get down to the brass tacks of who we are as grads, the core of what we do and execute our mission will never go away. And we've just got to blaze a path for our next generation to be successful.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 33:24
Absolutely. Well, speaking of blaze a path — and I think some of our listeners want to hear sometimes, you know they have times when they fail at things in leadership. How do you grow from that? Can you share a time when you experience failure and what it looked like, to help inspire them through that.
 
Dr. Chaudhary 33:42
Yep. Well, worst day of my life was when I failed a check-ride. I failed a simulator check-ride in the C-17. And it hurt. It hurt bad. I had aspirations in my career. I was like, “What's this gonna mean for me?” But you know some really smart folks, and that's when you turn to people who you really go to for advice, and it's like, you know, “Ravi, there are those who have and those who will.” So honestly, I just needed a smack in the head. They're like, “Get over it, man. You know, whatever you failed check-ride. Go out there, clean that thing up and those ups and downs in a flying career occur.” I'm being 100% honest with you, my failures are stacked up right next to my successes. And so, I think, to me, the failures were the things that helped me grow, grow through things and sometimes you think, “OK, well, that failure was unfair. I got, you know, I got a raw deal out of that.” Maybe I did, maybe I didn't, but you keep moving forward. Keep taking one step after another. Now I'm not a football guy. I love football. Watch about I never played football, but I do know what running back coaches say. I think, I'm not sure, they say, “Above all, always keep your legs moving. Don't ever up when you're running. Keep your legs moving.” And so, to me, I've always taken that advice. I've given that advice to other people too, especially when they come to me with challenges.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 35:09
That’s great advice. So maybe we can talk about your role now a little bit. And so, can you actually explain what you do? It might actually be shorter to say what you don't do, because when I look at the description, it's quite a bit. We have listeners that are parents and that maybe don't have a lot of military background and really understand. So, I think it's wonderful to share with the full community.
 
Dr. Chaudhary 35:31
Yeah, let me talk about the position. So, the job is one of those long titles. It's the assistant secretary for energy, installations and the environment. First thing first. I'm not a military member. I am a presidential appointee, so my job is as an appointee, a Senate-confirmed appointee. That means that you go through a hearing like you see in TV, and you get voted on, right? You get the vote. I was lucky enough to have after a period of being held, I had a bipartisan vote. And so that was pretty neat to have that. But my role specifically is to ensure that our installations are ready for the fight, for the future fight, and for current conditions. Things that I lose sleep over: Right now we're in a decade of consequence that our secretary and chief regularly say that decade of consequence includes great power competition in which China and Russia seek to shape the world order in ways that that work to their advantage, in autocratic manner, and so we've got to be ready for that, and that includes establishing an important deterrence. So, my job is to make sure installations are strong and present an approach of deterrence, and when deterrence failed, be ready to win. So, what does that mean for us? That means ensuring that our installations have power capabilities, that have strong runways, that have strong hangars, strong facilities, and included in which — families live on installations as well — to ensure we have top-notch housing. So, you'll see me reaching across all those areas, but importantly enough, making sure that those installations have the right power is critical. Our adversaries have declared their intent and have the capacity to go after our critical infrastructure, and that's the one thing that keeps me up at night: making sure that we have critical redundancies and opportunities to if somebody comes after our infrastructure tries to cut our power, we have redundant capabilities, that our control systems are cyber hardened. And you mentioned earlier, both kinetic and cyber threats. So roughly in the past two decades, as China has modernized our CENTCOM theater has really shaped an environment in which CONUS installations are under threat a little bit, but not entirely. We could be relatively confident that Grand Forks would be generally safe from ISIS from a major attack. In Great Power Competition, all of that goes out the window. Our adversaries, to include Russia and China, know how to go after critical infrastructure. They know how to employ cyber capabilities, and that's why we've got to make sure that we are pursuing cyber hardened energy control systems that protect you from those threats, and the ability to island from the local grid when we need to. So, here's one thing we're doing. I'm on a march over the next five years to bring 20 or so micro grids across our most critical installations. A micro grid — it's kind of like a power bar. You plug it in the wall and you can plug in renewable energy, you plug in wind, geo, you know, all kinds of things into that — solar — to build critical redundancies. So ultimately, building those redundancies allows you to harden your capabilities at the installation and micro-reactors give you the ability to manage and distribute power where you need it. Now we can also put in battery storage. So, battery storage allows you to — when the balloon goes up, boom, put in a firewall with the local community and get the jets out of town. Keep your employed in-place mission moving and build critical redundancies. Then once the jets are out of town, plug back in and share that power with a local community, because we know that our adversaries are going to be driving civil disruption to affect the efficiency of our installations as well, too. So that dynamic is really complex.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Wow, and the time is compressed.
 
Dr. Chaudhary
And the time is compressed, so we won't have time to react as quickly. So, we've got to prepare for an all-new environment in our installations. And it goes right back to the Hap Arnold quote. We've got to make sure that they're ready to ensure our operations are effective. And I was recently at Eielson Air Force Base, and what we're doing at Eielson is really novel. We're going to put in a small, modular micro-reactor, a small baby nuclear reactor.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Is there a small version of that?
 
Dr. Chaudhary
Yeah, there is a small version, but it hadn't been developed yet, and we decided that we're going to push on with this new capability and bring it to Eielson Air Force Base. The key is to now — back in the day, we used to do something, proof it military-wise, and then see if it's viable in the in the commercial market, right? Not anymore. We're going to do it all concurrently. So, we're going to pursue a Nuclear Regulatory Commission license. We've been engaging the local community. They love it, including tribal nations, who know that power advantages are going to be important for sharing in the community. And so that will be the first micronuclear reactor in any installation. We're looking to award in the spring or sooner, and then get this thing up and running in 2027. Why is this important at Eielson? And you're like, “Whoa, it's way up in Alaska.” Eielson is a critical entry point for the INDOPACOM theater.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
I was gonna say, where it's located…
 
Dr. Chaudhary
It's where the one of the highest concentrations of our 5th-gen fighter force is at. It’s where we do air defense, and it's where our mobility forces will be moving from Fort Wainwright all the way down range. So that's a critical node, and there's a few more of those that we've got to really, really stay focused on. So, energy and, by the way, a happy Energy Action Month as well. This month is Energy Action Month where we're looking at how we can improve power consumption across our Air Force and be more efficient. And bringing these micro-grids online is going to be a crucial, crucial aspect of that.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 42:07
Well, something I've learned about you is that you're not afraid to push the envelope, push the speed, but do it, like you said, concurrently and to find some solutions. And I don't know that there's anyone else that could do it just like are you're doing it.
 
Dr. Chaudhary 42:19
It's not me, it's my team. I have an incredible team of folks that refuse to accept anything [less] than excellence in our department. In fact, we have a saying in our organization that, “We eat no for breakfast.” So, I dare you to tell us no and that we can't do something. One of our coolest announcements recently that we were told “no” to for roughly three years, was a new apartment complex at Edwards Air Force Base. So, some folks may not know this, but Edwards Air Force Space is very isolated, and it's located in the desert, and so it takes roughly 45 minutes to get to the base once you get through the gate. And so, isolation of our military members, especially our junior enlisted, has been around for roughly four decades or more. And when we said, “Hey, let's do a venture-backed business model that allows us to bring state of the art departments not in MILCOM timeline like right now, timeline…” And so, we just announced an all-new venture commercial apartment complex that we just broke ground on, and we're going to start building, hopefully done by 2026 and these are timelines that allow us to move the Air Force forward aggressively. Another thing that we're doing is, I just announced a $1.1 billion investment in our dormitories and CDCs. As you know, quality of life is so critical. Back to this: If we're going to be, say that we're the number, have the number one installations in the world, we've got to live up to it, and that means our families need that too, as well. So, you've heard a lot about the GAO reports, everything from mold to decrepit housing. We're going to fix that, we're going to get ahead of it, and we're going to stay ahead of it. And so that's why our secretary, in our most recent president's budget, announced this. All we need is a budget now, yeah, and so, so our secretary is pressing hard for that, and we know that once that budget is approved, we can get working on these things and start changing quality of life and start upping our game in our installations.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 44:23
Well, I'm gonna take one of those leadership nuggets as “just eat no for breakfast,” but we're gonna learn more about your final takeaway lessons. Before we do that with you. Dr Chaudhary, I wanna thank you for listening to Long Blue Leadership. The podcast publishes Tuesdays in both video and audio, and it's available on all your favorite podcast platforms, watch or listen to all episodes of Long Blue Leadership at longblueleadership.org. Dr Chaudhary, this has been incredible. If you might leave our listeners with one thing, what would you like to share with them when it comes to leadership, or maybe just some lessons or anything about you that you'd like to share?
 
Dr. Chaudhary 44:57
Love what you do. Love our nation. I love my country because it's given me and my family everything. And I want everybody to believe that, you know, sometimes we get in these periods where we feel divided right across the spectrum, and it doesn't matter what your affiliation is, sometimes you just feel that. But I want folks to remember that America is not about what goes on entirely in Washington. It's about neighbors. It's about what you do for your neighbors. And to me, that's our biggest strength as a nation. You know, many years ago, our forefathers felt that the values of equality, fair treatment and self-determination would be enough to topple an empire, and it is. We should believe that too, and I want everybody to know that. So, it's an honor to be here. But before I go, I want to say thank you for just an intriguing hour. It's an honor to be here, and I want to give you my personal challenge coin…
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Oh my goodness…
 
Dr. Chaudhary
…and say thank you so much. It embodies a lot of what we do, military family housing, airfields, of course our beautiful 5th-gen fighter aircraft and our wind power and capabilities as a symbol of what we've got to do for installation school.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 46:16
That is an honor, sir. Thank you. Thank you so much. Oh my goodness, thank you.
 
Dr. Chaudhary 46:20
It was a great hour, and just a pleasure to spend time with…
 
Naviere Walkewicz 46:26
It was my pleasure. There’s so much I wanted ask you and I know we’re limited on time … Is there anything we can do for you?
 
Dr. Chaudhary 46:36
Just keep doing what you do. Keep making sure that our grads out there have a voice, have a say, and can contribute to all this institution has to offer our nation. And so, you're doing it, and I can't thank you enough for it.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 46:49
Thank you very much.
 
 
KEYWORDS
Air Force, Dr. Ravi Chaudhary, leadership, installations, energy, community service, innovation, military, great power competition, sustainability, Air Force Academy, leadership, aviation, innovation, energy solutions, GPS, pilot training, military standards, personal growth, resilience
 
 
MORE FROM DR. CHAUDHARY ON THE FOR THE ZOOMIES PODCAST with C1C ANDREW CORMIER ’25
 
 
The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation
 
 
 

Brian Campbell, Assistant Vice President for Athletics Development at the University of Miami, shares his journey from growing up in Columbus, Ohio, to becoming a leader in athletics fundraising, his experiences as a cadet at the Air Force Academy, the challenges he faced, and the resilience he developed. 
SUMMARY
In this conversation, Brian Campbell, Assistant Vice President for Athletics Development at the University of Miami, shares his journey from growing up in Columbus, Ohio, to becoming a leader in athletics fundraising. He discusses his experiences as a cadet at the Air Force Academy, the challenges he faced, and the resilience he developed. Brian emphasizes the importance of leadership, surrounding oneself with great people, and the impact of private investment in athletics. He also reflects on his transition from military to civilian life and his current role in shaping the future of athletics at UM.
 
OUR TOP 5 FAVORITE QUOTES
 
"I think it's important to be really authentic with people, and that has worked. It's worked well for me, especially when those decisions are consistent with being authentic to what we're trying to accomplish."
 
"I think a lot about the elements that we put into it, because it's hard on a daily basis to know if you're doing a good job being a leader, but if you take those pieces of the fabric that we learned at the Academy, and you keep doing it the right way and thinking about these things and surrounding yourself by people with with surrounding yourself with people of those kinds of values, and people that you can take little pieces of what they do and try to try to bring them with You. I think it's the right road."
 
"I don't think I've arrived as a leader and I but I started to think that I probably that I would be willing to bet that General Clark might say the same thing, and Coach Calhoun might say the same thing. So I think it's always a work in process."
 
"If you take those pieces of the fabric that we learned at the Academy, and you keep doing it the right way and thinking about these things and surrounding yourself by people with with surrounding yourself with people of those kinds of values, and people that you can take little pieces of what they do and try to try to bring them with You. I think it's the right road."
 
"I think it's always a work in process, but I think it's important to be really authentic with people, and that has worked. It's worked well for me, especially when those decisions are consistent with being authentic to what we're trying to accomplish."
 - Brian Campbell ’08, the Long Blue Leadership Podcast
 
SHARE THIS EPISODE
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CHAPTERS
00:00: Introduction to Brian Campbell
02:52: Growing Up in Columbus and Early Athletic Influences
06:14: The Journey to the Air Force Academy
08:59: Life as a Cadet: Challenges and Resilience
11:53: Leadership Lessons from the Academy
15:10: Transitioning from Military to Civilian Life
18:06: Fundraising and Philanthropy in Athletics
21:00: The Kutra Legacy Center: A Personal Connection
23:53: Current Role at the University of Miami
27:06: Leadership Philosophy and Key Takeaways
 
TAKEAWAYS
Brian's journey highlights the importance of resilience in overcoming challenges.
Authenticity in leadership fosters trust and connection with others.
Surrounding yourself with talented individuals can enhance personal growth.
Private investment plays a crucial role in the success of athletic programs.
Experiences at the Air Force Academy shape leadership philosophies.
Fundraising in athletics is about building relationships and trust.
Transitioning from military to civilian life requires adaptability and networking.
The Kutra Legacy Center represents a significant investment in future cadets.
Leadership is a continuous journey of learning and growth.
Engaging with alumni can create impactful opportunities for current students.
 
ABOUT BRIAN CAMPBELL ’08BIO
Brian Campbell ’08 joined the University of Miami in May of 2023 as Assistant Vice President for Athletics Development. In this role, Brian has oversight of fundraising operations, programs, and the development team for Miami Athletics. Brian came to UM from his alma mater, the United States Air Force Academy, where he had spent the previous five years, beginning in 2018 as the Assistant Athletic Director for Development and finishing as the Executive Director of Development for Strategic Programs and Athletic Giving.
At Air Force, Brian was responsible for the fundraising strategy and execution for athletic capital projects, endowments, and major giving, in addition to other revenue generating initiatives.  He also served as the liaison to the Air Force Academy Foundation Board of Director’s Athletic Committee.  The academy experienced unprecedented fundraising success during Brian’s time at USAFA – most notably completing a $270 million campaign nearly 18-months ahead of schedule, headlined by multiple record-breaking years of fundraising.
As part of the campaign, Brian led a $37.5 million fundraising effort to support the $90+ million modernization of the east side of Falcon Stadium.  Additionally, he managed the philanthropic component of a $500 million public-private partnership to develop a new hotel and visitors center outside USAFA’s north gate.  Other accomplishments during this stretch included a lead gift to launch the renovation of Air Force’s baseball venue, Falcon Field, and building the Wayne Baughman Wrestling Endowment, which seeks to provide operational funding for Air Force Wrestling in perpetuity.
Brian brings 15 years of organizational leadership experience to UM from multiple sectors.  He rose to the rank of captain in the US Air Force, then climbed to the partner level at Anheuser-Busch InBev   where he led the sales and marketing efforts for the Northwest region, including several of the largest sports and entertainment partnerships in the portfolio.
In each of the communities he’s lived in, Brian has supported local initiatives – serving on the boards of the National Football Foundation of Colorado, the Missouri Veterans Initiative, and the Boys and Girls Club of Alton, Illinois.  He was a football student-athlete at the Air Force Academy and earned his MBA from the Olin Business School at Washington University in St. Louis.
- Copy Credit:  University of Miami
 
CONNECT WITH BRIAN
LINKEDIN
 
 
ABOUT LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP
Long Blue Leadership drops every two weeks on Tuesdays and is available on Apple Podcasts, TuneIn + Alexa, Spotify and all your favorite podcast platforms. Search @AirForceGrads on your favorite social channels for Long Blue Leadership news and updates!
    
 
 
FULL TRANSCRIPT
SPEAKERS
Guest, Brian Campbell ’08  |  Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz ’99
 
Naviere Walkewicz  00:00
My guest today is the Assistant Vice President for Athletics Development, Brian Campbell, USAFA, class of 2008. Brian joined the University of Miami in 2023 as Assistant Vice President for Athletics Development, where he oversees all fundraising for UM Athletics. In 2018 he served as Assistant Athletic Director for Development for Air Force Athletics, ultimately becoming Executive Director of Development for Strategic Programs and Athletic Giving. Brian led several highly successful, multi-million dollar fundraising campaigns, including playing a significant role in securing funding for the Falcon Stadium's newly open Kucera Legacy Center. While at the Academy, Brian was a football cadet-athlete and later earned his MBA from the Olin Business School at Washington University in St. Louis. He also spent five years in sports marketing with Anheuser Busch. We'll talk with Brian about his life as a young athlete, path to the Air Force Academy, his days as a cadet, leadership opportunities, and how he now uses what he learned to lead and positively impact others. Finally, we'll ask Brian to share advice for developing leaders and those in leadership aspiring to reach similar heights in their careers. Brian, welcome to long blue leadership, and thank you for joining us today.
 
Brian Campbell  01:18
Thanks, Naviere. I am honored to be on the podcast, and I'm really happy to be back in Doolittle Hall, albeit remotely, and I want to welcome you to the “U.”
 
Naviere Walkewicz  01:29
Thank you so much. I will take that warm weather. Yeah, well, we're really excited for this. Brian, I think a lot of our listeners love to hear the different paths that our leaders take from getting to the Academy in life after but we like to start by rewinding the clock a little bit. And we'd like to get to know you, Brian, as a young boy. Tell us about what life was like growing up, where you grew up, etc.
 
Brian Campbell  01:51
Yeah. I mean, I was, I grew up mostly in Columbus, Ohio. My family was from California, but my dad's job took us to Columbus when I was young. And you know, as I've reflected back on some of my career and the things that have led me to different spots, I think being a kid from Columbus, and regardless of people's feelings about Ohio State, which tend to be fairly negative here at the my current institution, the lens at which I grew up in was through a place with a massive presence of college athletics, you know, everything, everything in that community, with the fabric was Ohio State. I played every sport growing up. I'm very grateful to have grown up at a time where, you know, we went out in the yard, in the neighborhood, and did everything all day. We figured out our differences in the backyard. There are a couple other guys in the neighborhood who went on to very successful athletic endeavors as well. So, you know, athletics were very important all throughout and then as we got more serious and into competitive things later on, they become, you know, more and more formal. But you know, sports and the community were tied together, and they very much provided the context at which my career followed.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  03:14
That’s awesome. So, you're really into sports. Did you have siblings as well? Or where was your neighborhood? Kind of the sibling playground for you.
 
Brian Campbell  03:22
I have two sisters both swam in college, although if one of them listens to this, I think she had like a cup of coffee on the swim team and realized that the rest of the extracurricular activities were a little bit more appealing. But my little sister swam all the way through in a very competitive college program. But there were but outside, in the streets and in the yard were where we spent our time. We would change by season. So, in the fall, we play football in the yard, and then the winter, you know, you'd shovel off and play basketball, and then in the summer, we'd play baseball. So, so all of the above.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  04:01
I love that. And I noticed you didn't say you ever went to the pool, so I'm sure that your sisters could definitely outswim you.
 
Brian Campbell  04:06
I went to the pool too. There was plenty of swimming in our family.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  04:12
Wonderful. So, you know, life as a child, you were really into athletics, and I think it developed your sense of competitor, you know, being a competitor about and winning. But also, it's probably teamwork. You know, what other things as a child could you share with our listeners about what it was like for you in Ohio?
 
Brian Campbell  04:32
I think all the above. I think, you know, when you have to work things out. You know, we weren't an era then the kids had cell phones or anything like that. You had to knock on someone's door, see if you could form a team, get out in the front yard and go take care of things. But yeah, we did stuff really. I mean, I'm kind of thinking back to one of my neighbors who went on to play some college football. He one time he broke his leg in the yard and kept playing.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Oh my goodness.
 
Brian CampbellYeah, but, you know, you learn to get along with other people. You know the saying of taking your ball and going home, that's, you know, you have to figure out how to get past those things. And I think the social dynamic that you gain from those experiences very much stayed with me, and I think is some of the foundation and the work that I do now, and being able to identify with different people in different situations.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  05:28
Alright, so I like what you're sharing about kind of you know, the social aspect that you've experienced growing up. Tell me about how it the Academy came into the picture. Then was it, was there someone that you grew up learning from that went to the Air Force Academy. Or how did that happen?
 
Brian Campbell  05:46
Well, as a sophomore in high school, as I was thinking of thinking back to some of these things, my dad actually took me to visit West Point, and we had a family friend who went to school there, and I remember going to visit him, and he was probably getting close to maybe in the summer before his senior year, and I remember him like getting pulled aside, and there was something that he had been doing wrong. Maybe. Is it related to escorting guests around the campus? It was during Sandhurst, and so we watched Sandhurst, and honestly, I remember thinking like this does not seem like any way to spend college, but as I went back, I was very fortunate to have like really, really good coaches in my life who were very interested in developing me and growing me and pushing out of my comfort zone. My high school football coach was very hard on me at times, but I think he saw something in me. And you know, when I began to look at colleges, and I was thinking about, like, could I play football somewhere? And there was a variety of schools, and I went on, I went on different visits in different places, and I just remember feeling like nowhere really made a lot of sense for me, like I didn't really feel like any of them really fit the things that were important to me. And then I got the chance to go on a visit to the Air Force Academy, and honestly, I was just like, I just, why not go see Colorado? I've never seen the mountains. So we took the trip out, and I was hosted on my visit by Rob McMenamin, who recently, unfortunately passed away, but was like just the greatest person you know, that could have possibly, that I could have come across at that time, and between him and the people I met on my visit, it was more about the fact that I felt like I was at home, and I had found a group of people that seemed so similar to me that I ended up deciding that that's what I wanted to do. Now we got back to Columbus, and my mom wanted me to talk to someone who didn't play football, and so they somehow found some other cadet, and I had, she's like, “You have to call him and ask him.” So, I called this guy, and I don't even remember his name. We'll see if he listens to the podcast. But he told me he's like, “I don't, I wouldn't do it, you know?” He's like, “It's, it's brutal, it's really hard.” And, oh, wow, I just don't think. But I got off the phone, and it didn't matter to me, like and so for me, it was, maybe it was just a feeling. It was the excitement of being part of something like that. I think I did understand how important the academies are, and what a serious opportunity that was. And maybe it was the fact that I never really thought I would have an opportunity to go to a place like that, but once I, it just kind of sat right, you know, I decided to pursue it.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  08:48
I love that. And I think what was really key about what you said was it felt like family or you're finding others that are like you. And so how did your parents respond to that? I mean, I think I love that your mom said, “Let's look at both sides.” Let's get everything you know, a perspective that's beyond athletics as well. And so, it's kind of a testament to, probably your upbringing, the fact that your parents are like, let's make some really sound decisions. Would you say that that's the case?
 
Brian Campbell  09:17
Yeah, I think once my mom got over the fact that it was a military academy. I mean, she asked the one of the coaches that came to our house, like, “What's, what happens afterwards?”, you know, but what was instilled in me at a young age, and when we that, my mom valued education a lot, and so that was, that was in me, and candidly, it was probably the best educational opportunity I was going to have, and it was the best athletic opportunity I was going to have. So those two things were really important. I mean, when we got to the Air Force Academy, I remember my dad being like, “Holy cow, this is a really big deal.” And, you know, I just, I sometimes think back to those times. Times where you know before you go through it, and you see the full grind and all the things that are required, you know, to go through our school, you forget how cool it is from the outside, and the mystique and the things that make it so unique. And I remember, I just remember all that and, and obviously the football piece was a big deal, despite how my football career ended up going to be, to be offered an opportunity to be a part of something like that. Just the weight was, you know, it was so significant, it outweighed any other opportunity I had.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  10:37
That's wonderful. So, let's talk about that transition then. So, you came to the Academy, you recruited football for what position?
 
Brian Campbell  10:46
Tight end.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  10:47
Tight end, awesome. And so, what was, do you remember day one? What was it like coming to the Academy for the second time after your recruiting visit?
 
Brian Campbell  10:55
Yeah. So, you know, as I think back to my time as a cadet, I mean, the things that really weave through everything are the relationships, and it's interesting. I don't know when we'll broadcast this, but right now we're 4 and 0 here. We just beat South Florida and because we're not for here right now. But okay, that doesn't feel good to me either. But you know, when I was, when I was there, I had a call on the way to Tampa with the first person I met on my recruiting visit at Southgate, when they were trying to figure out how to get us on the base.,
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Really.
 
Brian Campbell
Yeah, and it's just, you know, it's completely normal, you know, or, you know, it's not like we're out of touch. But like that, I talked to that person and the person I spent the day with Saturday before the game was the person that I roomed with in basic training and I still talk to the people that I'm very close with every day. But you know, to this day, the two people I probably met first were, I mean, we're just a very significant amount of time last week. So, I mean, I remember everything. I remember going down the shot line, getting all the things in my arm, and then the blazing hot scissors or whatever they put on our head and everything and then I remember standing in the hallway, but I honestly had no idea what was happening. And I'll never forget that the next morning, when they come and start pounding down the doors, and like, my hands were shaking and they're yelling about, like, BD us. And I was like, “What on earth is a BDU?” And then, you know, I'm like, looking around, trying to figure out what people are going to put on. And then the guy that I was telling you about that I just saw in Tampa, you know, he was a Navy Junior ROTC, so he starts saying, like, sir to people. And like, you know, all chaos broke loose, and we were off and running.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  12:54
Wow. Well, I could say that your roommate was helpful, but until he said, “Ill sir.”, that might not have been too helpful for you. Yeah, he wasn't running.
 
Brian Campbell  13:02
Yeah, he wasn't. He wasn't all that helpful.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  13:05
Wow. So off you went into your four-degree year. What was life like as a cadet for you? I mean, I think you know, you obviously were in football and you were having to do all the academics. So, let's talk about that experience a little bit.
 
Brian Campbell  13:20
Yeah. I mean, the Academy was really hard for me, you know, as the first place where I was around so many talented people, and probably at a different you know, a lot of them were at a different stage in their journey than I think I was. I was really trying to figure things out as I went. You know, I kind of hit some bumps in the road with my health. And, you know, like anybody that your four-degree years, really, really difficult. And, you know, I showed up, I was probably about, you know, 220 pounds. And they, you know, were eating and eating and eating to try to get bigger. And I think I went home for like, winter break, I was already, like, 250 and, and so, you know, I don't know where things would have gone from there, but that spring of my four-degree year, I started to have some health problems and, and it took them a long time to figure out what was going on. And I was diagnosed with Crohn's disease, and I had lost like, 60 pounds by that point, and it was a really, really difficult period for me, because I was trying to get through school and academics. I tried to keep playing football. Eventually I had to, you know, step away for a little bit and figure out my health. But I learned in that time, a doctor said, like, you can't have Crohn's disease and be in the Air Force. And I remember walking out of the cadet clinic, and I took the elevator up by McDermott, and because it was a doctor's appointment, it's like, everybody's in class, so the place is completely quiet. And I walked out, and it was like just a crystal clear day, like the sky couldn't have been more blue above the Chapel and the Air Gardens are on, and I'm like, I don't want to leave here, you know. And I think that changed my perspective on the entire experience. And it was a really meaningful time for me, because I realized that the things that had already happened there and in a difficult first year were, had made a big impact on me, and I had some, I got some guidance from some other graduates, and they helped me navigate them, the medical process a little bit, and I was able to stay and I just wanted to be there long enough to graduate. And I was fortunate enough to have a little bit more. I managed to blow out both my knees after that.
Naviere Walkewicz
Oh my goodness!
 
Brian Campbell
Yeah, both ACLs a year apart. So, I kept trying to do stuff, and it kept not working. But, you know, to be a part of the program and the relationships that I have from that, I mean, they still mean the world, even though, even though it was a little bit of a bumpy ride, right?
 
Naviere Walkewicz  16:03
So, your path, it looked a little different, probably from what you imagined coming to the Academy, especially growing up as the ultra-athlete. You know every sport for every season. Tell us about a little bit how you dealt with some of those challenges, because I think some of our listeners will experience things in life that kind of derail them from what they view as this is my path. And how did you keep your head above the fray and stay in a positive light, I guess, or maybe you didn't. What did that look like as you dealt with each of those challenges throughout the Academy?
 
Brian Campbell  16:38
Yeah, I mean, I think you learn in basic training there in hard times that you just are making it to the next meal. And I think for me, there was a stretch where I where I did that, and I look back now, and I feel like maybe because of that, there were things the academy offered that I wasn't able to take advantage of. But at the time, you know, I was so focused on just getting through the next thing and being able to kind of maintain my place there. But I think whether I knew it at the time or not, it built a significant resiliency in me, and I was not going to quit. I mean, if they were going to get rid of me, they were going to get rid of me, but I was not going to quit, and I was going to figure out a way to do it. And I think those are, those are elements that are very important in in what I've become and you know how I how I handle things to this day, if you can get through our school and if in everybody has challenges, and everybody has different things in their lives that they face. That's mine just happened to be health related, but I was very fortunate to have a huge support network. I had a great group of friends there. I mean, I had people who were who were rooting for me to be able to be successful and because of that, I was able to, I was able to continue to proceed through it, and all those elements were important for me in being able to do it.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  18:10
Now that's really, I think, insightful about you, and I think a testament to everyone just kind of finding something next to get to, like, in our case, it was getting to the next meal in basic, you know, you talked about being involved in sports and then having some of these health challenges. What did leadership look like for you at the Academy? Did you find yourself in certain roles where you were leading cadets? Or what did that look like?
 
Brian Campbell  18:37
Yeah, I mean, maybe this is if any cadets listen. You know, I was not in any, like, significant leadership positions as a cadet. I had, I think, what you would call some of the standard squadron jobs. And as I kind of reflect on, like, what I was learning about myself, you know, I think I tried to do a good job in those but, but, you know, I think I learned that there are formal leadership positions and then there's informal leadership. And what I don't think I appreciated was that, you know, you can still have impact on the people around you, whether or not you know the role dictates it, or your rank dictates it. I recall one time, you know, if you remember the squadron rankings, and we had gone from, like, second to 35th or something like that, and we had the equivalent of what would be like a players only meeting, where they said we were off in the S.A.R., like, trying to figure out, like, why we were in. And really, what you're driven by is there aren't going to be any passes to go anywhere, because at least at that time, it was directly related to how you were doing. And a lot of people talked, and there are a lot of opinions, and I remember finally feeling like I should say something, and I and I talked, and I just remember thinking like everyone seems to be listening. And I kind of noted that at that time, that I wasn't the squadron commander or anything like that, but it seemed like people valued my opinion, and it seemed like it resonated with a large swath of our squadron. And I think I take that with me now, because I believe there's kind of a meritocracy of ideas. You know, we all have rank in our organization, whether it's the military or whether it's something completely different. There's always different people who have different levels of authority. But, you know, I think great teams value ideas that come, that come from anybody.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  20:38
I think that is just a really important piece of information that you shared, because many times we have some of our developing leaders who may feel that they don't have the ability to share a thought because they think that they're too Junior. And so, what you just said, I think, was really powerful and hopefully empowering for some of our listeners to bring something to the table when they have something to share. So, I really appreciate you sharing that example. That was awesome. So, before we go into graduation, and what that looked like after you graduated, were there any specific people I know you said you had a great network of support. But were there any real like, inspirational leaders that kind of helped shaped you after you left the Academy, or right before you left into your life after the Academy?
 
Brian Campbell  21:31
Yeah, absolutely. I think that one thing that like means a lot to me are the people that I'm exposed to. I mean, I remember thinking a lot of General Rosa, who was our superintendent at the time. He guided the Academy through a difficult time. My four-degree AOC was just an outstanding leader, Joe Richardson. I have no idea what became of him, but, you know, in a tough year, it was like, every time we went in to our, you know, meet with our squadron, it was always like he had the right thing to say, and his presence was so strong, and we had some bumps in the road in our group that year, and he did everything he could to navigate through it. But, you know, he was, he was the kind of person who was, like, just a strong, inspirational type, type leader, and we needed that. I mean, you know, such a tough year, but you really felt like he was able to give us the energy and the courage to keep going for it, but he was also someone I think we all looked up to. And if you haven't been around the military a lot in your life, and you can see people like he went to our school and look at the kind of person he is now. That's a direction you hope you can follow. And then a completely other style was just being around Coach Deberry who wore his heart on his sleeve and said everything he wanted to say, and it came all out of love and passion. And he just he had that kind of style, and he built an organization that was really family centric and that was important to him. And then even my senior year, when I was just kind of like helping the staff in some different roles there, like when Coach Calhoun came in, it was a completely different style and tactic that he took. So I mean, the great thing about the Academy, I think we all talk about it a lot, is that you're exposed to leadership, you're exposed to cadet leaders, and you see how you respond to those things, too, and you take note of those as you grow, but we have some people who are also, like, very, very, you know, bona fide leaders that we had access to, and that would just be like the beginning of my list. I think now that makes sense.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  23:53
I'm sure the list is long because of just the exposure that you've had in different in different ways. So, when you graduated, what career field did you go into?
 
Brian Campbell  24:04
So I went into acquisitions, and my guidance from one of the doctors at the Academy there was, what can we do to take the least amount of grad physicals? So that's what I did.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  24:16
I was going to ask if that was what your passion was. But it sounds like it well, it teed off into something really well for you, and it also played well into your needs.
 
Brian Campbell  24:26
For sure, it did. It led me to things down the line, you know, Acquisitions. For me, it was an opportunity to be a part of a great organization. And there were parts of the Air Force that I valued. I also took note that that was probably not the thing that was going to excite me the most, and but I learned a lot about how, how kind of the business side of the Air Force works. And it was, it was still a great experience. I got to go all over the world. I got to be a part of a lot of really cool things that probably even at that age, I didn't really appreciate. I think the challenge for me in that particular career field is that you weren't really around a lot of active-duty Air Force members. And I think I missed that piece a little bit.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  25:13
Well, I think it's interesting, because one of the things that you've been able to do, I think, is find ways to give back in your career post, you know, military service, so that's probably been really rewarding for you. Can we talk a little bit about, you know, when you decided to transition out of the military? Because we do have listeners that both stay in uniform all the way through retirement and those who don't, who think about transitioning. So, I think it's really relevant. How did you come to that decision, and what did it look like for you?
 
Brian Campbell  25:44
Well, the Air Force came to the decision for me. So, I was going to PCS to my next station, and I'll never forget when the phone rang in my squadron commander's office. He came. It was like I knew what was going to happen, and the clock had run out on this whole Crohn's disease thing, and I was going to see a medical board and all that, all that kind of stuff. I ended up just saying that that's okay and I'll, I'm not. It was going to be like a year until I could go through that process, which didn't seem like very prudent at the time. I knew I was kind of proverbially playing with house money at that point, I was just so glad to have had my time in the Air Force and to be a part of the organization, you know, at least get to be a captain, but I didn't even fulfill my service commitment. So, it's really about the four and a half year point that that happened. And so, it was a little sudden, because I didn't know that that was going to happen. And so, I decided to kind of step away from the career field the you know, from work, I guess, altogether, and go to business school full time. So I went back to my desk, and I went through all the I got on US News and World Report and started going down the list of business schools and finding out who still had an application deadline available. And like three of the top 25 responded. And from there, I was able to do that. But the great thing for me was that I was able to spend two years away in a fully immersive environment, learning about the business side of management, which is different than the Air Force leadership style that we have in the in the military, and putting those two things together and thinking about some of my initial aspirations of, you know, maybe there's A career in sports. What might that look like? And you just get so, so many opportunities there to get exposed to people in different career fields. And those two years at “Wash U” for me were, were, I'm very, very fortunate to have those. They had a target of getting 10% of the class to be veterans, so I called the right school at the right time, and they were like, hey, just we'll help you. We'll help you figure this out. And they did everything they could to give me that opportunity.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  28:10
That's amazing. And I was going to ask, did you see the value of what you'd experienced at the Academy coming to play in your program there, that you were able to share with others, and what did leadership look like for you there?
 
Brian Campbell  28:23
Yeah, so, you know, in business school, it's a constant. I think balance between everything is about shareholder maximization and wealth creation, and they have to teach you those fundamentals. I think Olin did a good job reminding us about character-based management and leadership, and we had classes about critical decisions in leadership and management and things like that. And they brought some very senior business leaders in to talk about key inflection points of things that they had, and then, you know, we had, there's a professor there whose areas, area of study is, you know, economics with a higher purpose, and that's blending, like, how does being doing the right thing, and having something that's beyond just, you know, running your operation to the most efficient manner possible, and he's been able to show that organizations who do that and have a higher purpose are more successful. And so, for me, that is kind of the philosophy that I moved forward with in my career. So very different, very business fundamentals, but as you got towards the end, it was important to them that we understood that it wasn't always everything. Wasn't always about the near-term dollar and that things could your organizations are rewarded for doing the right thing and making decisions in the right way.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  30:00
Yeah. Yeah, it sounds like you absolutely picked the right program that really aligned with your own core values, you know, your own kind of, I think, navigational system as well as you know where you're wanting to go with things. So, what did that look like? Then, after you graduated, I know you spent some time at Anheuser Busch. Was that kind of just the next part of that journey?
 
 
 
Brian Campbell  30:20
Yeah, so I wanted to get back into sports right away, and so I started a networking process of I tried to meet with NFL teams. I didn't, I just didn't know how or what I was going to do, but I knew that that was my opportunity, a mentor of mine that I did a project for while I was at all. And he well, first of all, I started to find out also what jobs in sports pay. So, anybody listening to this guy's aspirations, just get that part settled for yourself right away. But it didn't matter to me. But I did have a bill I needed to figure out from business school. And his recommendation was, you know, you're down the street from essentially the biggest sports marketer in the world, you know, go there, you know, pursue that, and then figure out down the line if you still want to come back. And that ended up being the perfect step for me. You know, not only did I go to a place that ended up being a bridge back into this work, but Anheuser Busch, and the way that company is run is incredibly efficient and driven and lean and everything there is about value, and it's run by a set of Investment bankers who brought their philosophies into consumer goods, and, and, and they're extremely market share based, but it was, it was really cool to be a part of an organization that does things that way. And candidly, it was probably the other end of the spectrum than just being in the military. And both should operate in the way that they do, but that was such a valuable experience for me to work for an organization like that. I could not have done it forever. So, and I did get over into sports marketing, I ended up having what I think a lot of people would think is like maybe the coolest job of all time. I had the chance to run our whole northwest marketing portfolio. So, I had, you know, our Broncos partnerships and Vail Resorts. It took me back to Colorado to be in that office from, from being in New York City, we had the Seahawks, but it also we had a little college down the street that we had a partnership with called the Air Force Academy.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  32:39
I was wondering, how you direct to Colorado? That's where it was, yeah.
 
Brian Campbell  32:43
So, we had an office in Denver, and after a few years of doing that, Anheuser-Busch wants you to move around. They want you to grow. You can't stay in a lot of these jobs forever. And so, I knew there was a point where if I really wanted to do this, and I still felt such a calling to come and do this kind of work, and I kind of felt like I'd never forgive myself if I didn't try. So, I started making a lot of calls and knocking down doors. And eventually, eventually, a position opened back at the Academy, and I, like borderline forced them to hire me,
 
Naviere Walkewicz  33:15
Brian, I'm seeing a theme. I mean, as a kid, you would knock down doors come play. You know, when you were, got out of the military, when you were when you had to go, you were knocking down doors, “What's open for me?” So, I think the theme for you is, don't be afraid to knock down some doors and just see what's available. You went back to the Academy. Let's talk about your time there and what kind of evolved since then.
 
Brian Campbell  33:39
So, I came back to the Academy, we had a had the chance to learn a little bit about raising money in our athletic department, and we were coming up on a campaign like the first real significant campaign that had happened at the at the Air Force Academy. I mean, before I got back, I didn't even really know what a campaign was, to give people some context and where I was there, but General Gould said, “Hey, we're going to do this project on Falcon Stadium.” And, you know, and I thought to myself, hey, if I'm going to be here at the Academy, I need to be a part of this project. And so, I transitioned from our athletic department over to our foundation in about in 20-, early 2020, and had the chance to work on the projects that were that were happening there.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  34:27
So, I think this is helpful. Many of our listeners may not be aware of the ways that some of our foundations support the Academy, and I think through athletics is certainly one way. Can you talk a little bit about what that looks like, so that we can share more about the context of a campaign and giving back?
 
Brian Campbell  34:45
Yeah, I mean, I think my, my reflection on it is like the government's going to do enough to keep the doors open and provide a basic, solid experience. I think the US News and World Report rankings came out like today, we're number two. We're not number two without private investment. And I hear a lot from young grads about like they're asking me for money. They're asking me for money, and what they're asking you for is to invest in the experience and for us and on our resumes and the prevalence of our of our institution, and this is a competitive world that stuff matters and allows us at the Academy to keep professors that the government wouldn't necessarily be able to keep, to give very enriching research opportunities to cadets that otherwise I don't think we're really there when we were around. And it allows us, you know, militarily and then athletically, to be competitive at the highest level. And you know, when we say excellence in all we do, we're talking about being, you know, excellent in every facet of this of the Academy. And so, we're very fortunate that people have stepped forward at the Academy to invest in these areas and help us shape what they what they've created, and what they've become. And so private investment is a, is a real factor in our success there. And I got the chance to be in the middle of it and have a lot of those discussions and meet people who wanted to help. And it's an opportunity for them to kind of, you know, provide their passion or something they're particularly interested in, to shape the experience of the cadets. So, it's a very enriching process, and it's a really wonderful thing to be a part of.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  36:47
Well, I can share that, you know, I had the ability to work with you briefly when you came here, and then I joined in 2021 and there was so much that I learned. But I think what was really rewarding for me was to understand that to what you just said, you can actually invest in ways that you feel really compelled and what's important to you at the Academy. And so maybe you can share with our listeners what was something really rewarding, aside from the Kucera Legacy Center coming to life now, and we can talk about that. But what was something really rewarding to you that you were part of in the philanthropic side of our business?
 
Brian Campbell  37:20
Yeah, I mean not just being a fundraiser there, but I mean the chance to give myself and make the commitments that I could to the Academy that meant a lot to me to be able to help, but I enjoyed seeing like the little grassroots campaigns that were put together that gave cadets reprieve from life and rewarded them for different things. You know, NCLS is an amazing thing that happens there, that you get to take a step back from every year and appreciate the kind of people we bring back and put in front of the cadets. So, I mean, aside from the big projects, there's just stuff every single day, and you get emails from the cadets and ask like, “Hey, can we do this? Can we, what would it take to change our squadron to something else?” And you can help weigh out a little plan. And those aren't the dollars that necessarily drive campaign totals, but they matter because they matter to the cadets and the way that, you know those finances work there it's, you know, so many people have invested in the Foundation and the Association in a way that, you know, all these resources can get directly poured into cadets and because the government keeps the doors open, we can do things that are additionally impactful. You know, at other schools, like where I'm at now, we have to fill an endowment because of how we have to continue to operate the school. So that's not something we, I mean, there's ways that are that's helpful at the Academy too, but it's not as critical at the Academy, because the lights are on and we can be extremely effective in the investments through donors to impact cadets directly.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  39:06
No, that makes sense. I really like what you said about you got to give yourself. And I think part of what I've been picking up in our conversation is a lot of I think giving and investing is through relationships. And so I think some of the biggest pieces that come from that is the trust and relationships you build with people. Would you agree? Is that kind of how you feel about things?
 
Brian Campbell  39:26
Yeah, I do. And I you know, if I didn't go to the Air Force Academy, I'm not sure I would be doing this kind of work, even though the Air Force Academy is not designed to put you into this kind of work. But the relationships that I had from the academy and then throughout my time back there, are as important to me as just about anything you just the school exposes you to just such outstanding people. And I'm just very. Be grateful for, for all of those relationships that, that I've had the privilege to have.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  40:06
So, Brian, we've been talking about the ways we give back and relationships built. Let's, talk a little bit about the Kucera Legacy Center, because we just were able to the ribbon cutting and just beautiful experience with Jack and Vianne. What did it mean to you?
 
Brian Campbell  40:21
You know, being back at the Academy during the time that I was back, and maybe a lot of the people who listen to this maybe know what has happened on our Academy over the last three years, but the investment that's gone back into our school is just staggering. You know, not only the Kucera Legacy Center, but the Madeira Center, the hotel that's going up, the visitors center, the expansion to do it all, but the Kucera Legacy Center was kind of near and dear to my heart, and it was an opportunity given to me to be a really significant part of the entire project. Was one thing that took every piece of the institution to make happen. But it took Jack and Vianne really specifically. And it wasn't just their investment, but it was like a vision from Jack that I think got us through some times, that you know, maybe in years past, the project would not have, would not have continued on. And you know what I'll remember most is not just working on the gift that they made with them, but like working on the elements that were important to them to see in the facility. And the unique thing about that project is it's not just a facility. It is a way that we can invest back into our Academy and cadets. It's one of the few things on the Academy that can be commercialized and a positive return on investment. So, it's going to be used for a lot of things, but I'll never forget of the groundbreaking. Jack does so much for our school. And he was talking about, you know, why he flies Coach Calhoun around to recruit, and for coach, it's hugely helpful for him to get, you know, Division One coaches essentially have to fly in that manner. They have to fly private to be able to recruit effectively. That's a that's not an easy thing for our school to provide, and so Jack flies coach around a lot. And you know, I know Jack wants us to win football games, because I've watched some football games with him, and he's like one of the few people that can match as tense and nervous as I am, but he talked about the fact that everywhere they go, they knock on a door, and Coach Calhoun is giving some young person an opportunity to change their life. And you know, for them, we have this beautiful facility. Now, I can't wait to come back and see it, but I think that's what it is for them, is that's maybe the physical manifestation of their gift is knowing that, you know when, when, when young people accept that opportunity to come to the Air Force Academy, and they probably wouldn't have gotten it for this particular subset without a sport, that they can change their lives. And you know, watch being a part of that, even the small little part that I was is something that I think is a really, really significant part of my career and my journey.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  43:30
Wow. I mean, that's almost a 360 for you, right? You were someone who was given that opportunity, and now thinking about the future cadets that are going to be given a similar opportunity with something that you were part of in such a legacy and visionary manner, from Jack and Vianne. I mean, it's just incredible.
 
Brian Campbell  43:48
Yeah, absolutely.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  43:51
So, Brian, you have taken a role at the University of Miami, and let's talk a little bit about that. So, you were able to do some things here at the Academy. How's it been in the transition for you there at UM?
 
Brian Campbell  44:04
I mean, it's been, it's been crazy. So, you know, we're in the real battle of college athletics down here at a time that's very dynamic. It's an unbelievable opportunity to be a part of a traditional powerhouse with really, really significant aspirations, but a big part of it for me as I had the chance to come down here and work for a really high level team at a time that the school wanted to invest in athletics. And you know, the athletic director that I work for here, he won two national titles at Clemson. We have multiple other former division one athletic directors on our staff, and we do transformational things around this campus through athletics, but for other areas, our medical system and our academic side as well. So, it's been a challenge for me to get to learn the dynamic here. You know, at the Air Force Academy, a lot of people have a lot of thoughts on a lot of things. Miami supporters have a lot of thoughts on one thing, and that's winning football games. But, you know, the fundamentals remain the same, and I've been given a chance to kind of reshape the way we do this work. And for those that follow college athletics, it's been at a very, very fascinating time where there's huge change in the industry. There's a ton of uncertainty, and it's really forced me to think a lot about how we do our work and why we do it. And I think as a lot of people probably think that with Nio and possible rev-share and things like that, that we're losing the fabric of college athletics. There are little instances of that, but we are able to kind of double down on other ways to make an impact on our student athletes here and invest in their lives. So, it's been it's a challenge. We have a lot of work to do, but we're on the road, having some successes is really helpful. And being in a place that has really, really high expectations is really special to be a part of.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  46:16
So, you talked a bit about the fundamentals, and so what have you taken from your time at the Academy throughout your career to bring to UM now?
 
Brian Campbell  46:27
Yeah, I think the noise in college athletics and our work has become more complex. I took the opportunity to kind of distill things back down to the core mission of what we do, and that's to positively impact lives through excellence in athletics and our team, our role in that effort is to is to invest in those areas. So, we focus on, you know, kind of three key areas to do that. One of them is performance, kind of elite performance. The next one is what we call champions for life, which is investing in academics and in student athlete development. And then the last one is competitive excellence, and that's acknowledging that there's an area now with Nio and possible revenue share with athletes that we also have to be competitive in. But I've encouraged our team to think about, like, what the real purpose of our work is, and like what we do every day. And I think I kind of touched on a little bit of that earlier, when things got really confusing in the industry and stuff like that, understanding that, like our job really is simply to enrich an experience for our student athletes here, and best prepare them for the world. And if we do that really well, we're going to be really successful. And when we talk about that purpose on our team, you know, I try to find people to join our team who are going to resonate with that. And for me, I think when you identify with that purpose and kind of the core elements of it, it also makes me better at what I do, and better at leading and being authentic with the team that there are challenges but in there, and we're in a we're in an environment with headwinds and high expectations and high levels of competitiveness. But if we can focus on doing those things, we're going to make we're going to make every bit the kind of impact that has always been made in college athletics.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  48:33
So, what have you learned about yourself as a leader throughout this journey? It sounds like you've had just various opportunities to understand who you are in different roles. How does that translate in your leadership? What does that look like to our listeners?
 
Brian Campbell  48:49
Yeah, I think what I've learned over time is that in the Air Force, you are in the people business, and everything we do is kind of by for and through people. And I'm not sure if I understood it, even when I was in the beer business, but really, you're in the beer business, you're in the beer business, or you're in the people business, and your product is beer. And then now I'm kind of in the in the middle of this now, where we have a product, but our product, once again, is people. Now we have to be, you know, commercially viable, and there's a there's a significant financial side of what we do. But I think back to my time at the Academy, and I think one thing you can't escape at the Academy is that you know you're bringing your whole self every day to what we're doing. You know you are you're in it. You don't go home anywhere else. So, your squadron is where you live, and, and you realize that you know what's happening in your life, and, and, and for anybody that's on the team, like they're going to bring it with them, and, for me, I've thought, I think we talk a lot in business and leadership about acknowledging that and being there for people and being empathetic. But the other side of it is, you know, if our people are our most important asset, then what are we doing to invest in them and through, you know, this is a really busy kind of work, and authentically making sure that my team knows, and I hope that they do that we're going to try to grow them, and we're going to try to reward them for being successful, because it matters to the bottom line. It's not just the right thing to do. It helps move us forward, because if we're improving the conditions that they can go home to and spend with their families, we're going to get a better version of them, and it's going to improve the work that we do. So I think being in such an immersive type of place like the Air Force Academy, you realize that there is no turning it off when you leave or go somewhere, we go through difficult times, but we also have the opportunity in these kinds of roles to improve that and make sure people are fulfilled and finding their purpose in our work. And inevitably, I really do believe that that impacts our bottom line.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  51:21
What fulfills you and your work as a leader?
 
Brian Campbell  51:26
I mean, there's so much. This is what I love to do. And I love to be around the competition side of things, and I love to see when we're able to make something happen, a donor's vision to invest in our student athletes. And, you know, you see some of the things that they go on to accomplish, and you see what it means to the institution. I mean, you know, here, I think sometimes we think like, wow, college football in America is just bonkers, and it's crazy. It's gone off the rails, you know. But here at the University of Miami, you know, we have a we have a really, we have the biggest research based health system in South Florida, and it's the same logo that's on our helmet and that health system is successful because we have a very strong brand through football mostly, and In so I think we take that very seriously, that you know our work is directly tied to things that happen, not only on our campus, but in the healthcare system here as well. But you know, the true where the rubber meets the road is seeing the success that you know our student athletes have and enriching their experience and being able to tie that back to the people that make that possible.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  52:45
So, if we have any listeners that are interested in getting into the gift officer kind of role, the ability to help others invest, what would you share with them as maybe just a path or things to be considering?
 
Brian Campbell  52:59
Yeah, I mean, fundraising and development's a whole it's a whole industry, and it would be great to have more grads that would come into this kind of work. I mean, I was often asked by donors at the academy, why more people? Why more grads aren't doing it? And it's a unique it's a unique career path, but if there's elements of things that are meaningful to you, and you think that you know, nonprofit work might be appealing. Fundraising is a great way to do it. There's ups and downs. It's challenging. There's a bit of a craft to learn to it, but it's, this is not rocket science in any way. But if I really thought I was going to do it, I'd pick up the phone and call a grad who does it. I can think of a couple names off the top of my head and just ask and start to network. And when I moved over into college athletics in order to do that, I mean, I probably made 500 phone calls, and I always ask someone for the next name and network that way. And I received tremendous advice, and it was really good practice for what I ended up doing. I would encourage. I would love it if more would come into this line of work. You heard it here first friends, yeah, we'll see how effective it is.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  54:15
That is wonderful. Well, we're going to get into a couple more things before, before our podcast ends. So, Brian, I just want to ask you in advance so you have some time to think about this. Our listeners want to know something unique about you, maybe something that you haven't shared with anybody you know, something fun or some kind of talent you have. So, I'll give you a little bit of time to think about that, and then we're also going to want to hear your takeaways. So, before we get there, we're going to ask for Brian's final thoughts next. Before we do that, I'd like to take a moment and thank you our listener for listening to long blue leadership. The podcast publishes Tuesdays in both video and audio, and is available on all your favorite podcast platforms. Be sure to watch or listen to all episodes of Long blue leadership@longblueleadership.org All right, so Brian, welcome back, and we're really excited. Our listeners love to learn things here on Long Blue Leadership that they can only hear here. So, would you mind sharing with us something that is unique about you?
 
Brian Campbell  55:15
Well, I think before the break, you mentioned a talent, so I'm going to take credit for this being a talent during covid, I started getting into, like, amateur mixology, and so, yeah, at home. Now this is maybe a dangerous habit to have, but I do, I do share some of my work with some of the administration there still so, so it's definitely bled into Doolittle Hall a little bit, but I've learned to make, like, very specific cocktails and stuff like that. And I love doing it. I love trying something new all the time. So, I don't know if that's a talent or not. People can come have a have a drink with me at my house and decide to do when you have, when you have two little kids, you need to bring the fun. Needs to be at home. That's right, yeah, so, so, so that's, that's kind of my unique interest, I guess, more than a talent.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  56:13
We love that. So maybe we'll see a line down the road of a series of Campbell drinks. Or…
 
Brian Campbell  56:21
…yes, yeah, I do name some of them after things at the Academy.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  56:25
Just so, you know, okay yeah, I guess I could ask you to share one of them, maybe one name.
 
Brian Campbell  56:30
Well, you know, a lot of good supporters were in the class of ’75 so I changed French ’75 to ’75 Best Alive.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  56:39
Love that.
 
Brian Campbell  56:43
People have no idea what I'm talking about.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  56:45
I would want to twist to that. I would want to twist that and skip it. So that's fantastic. Thank you for sharing that well. Before we close, we really like to leave our listeners with just a couple of key leadership nuggets that you'd like them to have. What would you leave our listeners with, Brian?
 
Brian Campbell  57:03
Yeah, you know, I think as I look at some of the people that were on this podcast, I mean, you have some folks who are very, very accomplished and at the top of their fields, and then you have some others who are at the beginning of their careers and heading down that, that road. You know, for me, I'm probably in the middle of it. And as I look at the arc of my career, I don't think I've arrived as a leader and I, but I started to think that I probably that I would be willing to bet that General Clark might say the same thing, and Coach Calhoun might say the same thing. So, I think it's always a work in process, but I think it's important to be really authentic with people, and that has worked. It's worked well for me, especially when those decisions are consistent with being authentic to what we're trying to accomplish. And the other thing that's meant the most to me, and is just surrounding myself with the best people possible, and that has continued to help me grow and evolve, and not just the people I hire, but I think back to my time working there at the academy and how cool it is in a you know, couple year period I was around, you know, Mark Welsh and Dana born, and Jack Kucera and Paul Madera and the Brunies (SP?) and Mike Gould and these kinds of people. And that's who I had the chance to surround myself with, and I, think that that has more to do with me having other opportunities in my career to go grow and learn at a different place and hopefully be successful here as much as anything that I did. And so I think a lot about the elements that we put into it, because it's hard on a daily basis to know if you're doing a good job being a leader, but if you take those pieces of the fabric that we learned at the Academy, and you keep doing it the right way and thinking about these things and surrounding yourself by people with surrounding yourself with people of those kinds of values, and people that you can take little pieces of what they do and try to try to bring them with You. I think it's the right road.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  59:22
Well, Brian, it's been a pleasure. I know I've just taken away some things, and in our time together here, learning about you, but also just inspiring me thinking about how we can give and it really is a pleasure. I can't wait to see where your trajectory of your career takes you and the ways that you'll continue to make an impact.
 
Brian Campbell  59:39
Wow. Thank you. Naviere, it was great to be a part of it. Thank you everyone at the Association and the Foundation. I'm glad that we have a podcast. I know that there's so many efforts that are happening to connect with grads at all stages in their careers and their journey, and I just really appreciate that. Audience to be on and all the incredible work that's happening back there at our school.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  1:00:06
Thank you. So, we can end with the Go Falcons, right?
 
Brian Campbell  1:00:08
Yeah. Beat Army, sink Navy!
 
KEYWORDS
Brian Campbell, Air Force Academy, leadership, growth, development, athletics, fundraising, University of Miami, Kucera Legacy Center, resilience, sports marketing, philanthropy
 
 
 
The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation
 
 
 
 

While a cadet at the Air Force Academy, Jason Kim ’99 experienced the “pedestal effect” and learned the importance of curiosity, compassion, trust and mutual respect.
 
SUMMARY
Jason Kim, a USFA class of '99 and CEO of Firefly Aerospace, discussed his leadership journey and experiences. He emphasized the importance of curiosity, compassion, and mutual respect in leadership. Jason shared his upbringing in Richardson, Texas, and his parents' influence. He recounted his time at the Air Force Academy, highlighting the humbling experience of being among top cadets and the value of building trust. Jason detailed his career path, including roles at Boeing, Raytheon, and Northrop Grumman, and his MBA from UCLA. He stressed the importance of giving back to the Air Force Academy and the Space Force.
 
OUR FAVORITE QUOTES
"I think just being curious and being an active listener and asking questions and listening to other people, sometimes people want to vent, or sometimes people want to just be heard or have a voice, or some, most of the time, people just have good ideas."
"And so I would just say, just be curious, what did I miss? Did you miss something? Did we both miss something? If you get all those great ideas and you share it amongst different people from different backgrounds and walks of life, you don't miss as much, you know, and you're just bet off better off, you'll have a better solution."
"Building that trust, you know, with your your your teams, that's extremely empowering and motivating when you trust someone else, and they trust you, and you can go much, much further when you build that trust up."
"We got this drilled into us, and we didn't even know at the time how important it was. But you know, building that trust, you know, with your your your teams, that's extremely empowering and motivating when you trust someone else, and they trust you, and you can go much, much further when you build that trust up."
"And then the last thing I would say is, I think we were one of the first classes that had non commissioned officers alongside with AOCs that were there to teach us about mutual respect, about mutual respect between officers and non commissioned officers. And I think that went a long ways for for all of us, because, you know, once we went to the real Air Force, you know, we were going to lead a lot of officers and NCOs, and getting that kind of exposure early on was helpful, but also learning about mutual respect, that's something that is extremely important in any work setting that you're in."
 
 
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CHAPTERS
00:00:  Introduction and Background
02:24:  Welcome to Long Leu Leadership
07:42:  Early Inspirations and Motivations
10:56:  Discovering the Air Force Academy
16:00:  Memorable Experiences at the Academy
23:26:  Leadership Lessons Learned
26:32:  Leadership: Curiosity, Compassion, and Mutual Respect
28:14:  Startup Journey: Taking Risks and Minimizing Regrets
30:07:  Leadership Lessons: MBA and Personal Growth
32:05:  Startup Experience: Joining and Growing a Company
36:18:  Family and Risk-Taking: Lessons from Parents
39:36:  Hidden Talent: Drawing and Painting
45:36:  Giving Back: Involvement with the Air Force Academy Foundation
51:30:  Impact of the Air Force Academy: Building Resilience and Confidence
 
TAKEAWAYS
Growing up in Texas with immigrant parents instilled a strong work ethic and a desire to give back to the country in Jason Kim.
Inspired by the space shuttle program and the Gulf War, Jason decided to pursue a career in the military.
At the Air Force Academy, Jason experienced the pedestal effect and learned the importance of curiosity, compassion, trust, and mutual respect in leadership.
Jason's academic and extracurricular experiences at the Academy helped shape his leadership skills and provided him with lifelong friendships.
His parents and role models like Colonel Ellison Onizuka influenced his decision to join the Air Force and give back to the country. Curiosity, compassion, and mutual respect are essential qualities in leadership.
Taking risks and minimizing regrets can lead to personal and professional growth.
Giving back and supporting future generations is important.
The Air Force Academy provides valuable experiences and lifelong friendships.
Learning multiple languages and exploring different cultures can broaden perspectives.
The Academy's challenging environment builds resilience and confidence.
 
ABOUT JASON KIM ’99
Mr. Jason Kim ’99 is a member of the Air Force Academy Foundation Board of Directors. He is also CEO for Firefly Aerospace. Jason's career includes his work in the satellite and national security space for Boeing Raytheon and Northrop Grumman. While in the Air Force, he served as a program manager for the Space Superiority Systems program and Reconnaissance Systems Program offices. He has served on the boards of the National Defense industrial Association and space enterprise consortium formation Committee. He began his Air Force career as a cadet, having graduated with a degree in electrical engineering, followed by a master's in electrical engineering from AFET and then an MBA from the University of California, Anderson School of Management. 
 
CONNECT WITH JASON
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ABOUT LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP
Long Blue Leadership drops every two weeks on Tuesdays and is available on Apple Podcasts, TuneIn + Alexa, Spotify and all your favorite podcast platforms. Search @AirForceGrads on your favorite social channels for Long Blue Leadership news and updates!
    
 
 
SPEAKERS
Guest:  Mr. Jason Kim ’99  |  Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz ’99
 
Naviere Walkewicz  00:01
Our guest today is Mr. Jason Kim USAFA class of ’99 and a member of the Air Force Academy Foundation Board of Directors. Jason's career includes his work in the satellite and national security space for Boeing, Raytheon and Northrop Grumman. While in the Air Force, he served as a program manager for the Space Superiority Systems and Reconnaissance Systems program offices. He has served on the boards of the National Defense Industrial Association and Space Enterprise Consortium Formation Committee. He began his Air Force career as a cadet, having graduated with a degree in electrical engineering, followed by a master's in electrical engineering from AFET and then an MBA from the University of California Anderson School of Management. We'll discuss Jason's life before, during and after the Academy, and we'll ask him to share a unique talent. We'll end with his advice for those striving to become leaders and those already in leadership positions, endeavoring toward excellence. Jason, welcome to Long Blue Leadership, my friend, my classmate. Thank you for being here today.
 
Jason Kim  01:04
Thank you for having me, and thanks for using my call sign.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  01:09
You're welcome. I know we want it to catch on so everyone knows now. Well, as we do in this, this is such a wonderful opportunity for our listeners to get to know you, and we like to go back and so for us, we're talking, you know, closer to 30 something years ago, right, when you were young. Jason, tell us about what life was like before the Academy was even in your in your line of sight.
 
Jason Kim  01:31
So, I grew up in Richardson, Texas. It's a suburb north of Dallas, and if you've been to Dallas, it's a metropolitan city, and but it's a little bit country as well. And so yes, I grew up with cowboy boots. I grew up with a belt buckle, you know, driving a pickup truck, all those kinds of things. But I'd listen to all kinds of music. So, judging by my call sign, you know, rap music, R&B, but also some country as well. And my parents were first-generation immigrants from South Korea, and so I really saw how hard they worked, you know, learning a different language, buying a house, doing all that in their late 30s and 40s and raising three children. I'm the youngest of three boys, and so I'm very, you know, grateful for what my parents did for us three boys. My dad was an electrician on oil rigs and was in the oil and gas industry, and that's why we ended up in Texas. And I'd see him travel away for a month at a time, and then come back home for a month to places like Venezuela and United Arab Emirates and Gulf of Mexico and all kinds of places. And so, you know, I heard stories of travel and just everything he was doing. So, we'll get to this later, but he was definitely an inspiration early on for me, and he always, you know, was very grateful for being a naturalized citizen and allowing our family to grow up in the U.S. and get an education. And so, he always kind of inspired me to give back to the country, and always do good things for the community as well. And so that's where I kind of got those roots. And, you know, also being the youngest of three boys, my older brothers were seven and nine years older than me and so you can imagine I was the little kid that they would bring along to school or, you know, meeting with friends. And so, I learned the good things from them and emulated the good things, but then the bad things, the mistakes that they made, I tried to avoid that. So, I kind of got it easy watching them. And so, I owe a lot to them coaching me and mentoring me as I grew up, and then being in Texas, of course, what did I play sports in, I played football. And I would say that a lot of the leadership skills that I got early on came from football, and a lot of the work ethic came from football — the teammates, the collaboration, the strategy. Texas football is pretty legit, and so I got to watch tape, I got to lift weights, practice. All those things that Tom Brady says in his Hall of Fame speech I resonate with now, I didn't end up like Tom Brady, but I resonate with what he said, all those early mornings, waking up, you know, training, all the hard work. It really taught me a lot of good lessons. And, you know, I still kind of  have a lot of that work ethic because of, you know, playing football, and a lot of the team and collaboration came from collaborating with 10 other football players trying to score a touchdown, or keep others from scoring a touchdown. And also, a big reason why I'm a big college football fan, so I'm really happy to see your son play for the Falcons, and I'm going to be rooting for him and the rest of the Falcons, as well as my other alma mater, UCLA, so I'll be at those games as well.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  05:55
That is awesome. I mean, I'm almost developing a visual of young Jason and his two older brothers and his mom and dad. And what a story. I mean, I think about, you know, just first off, the confidence, resilience and grit of your parents, right? And then you're seeing this, and you're growing up in a household. So, what, as the youngest? I mean, I think, like you said, you were able to kind of see what to avoid, what pitfalls to avoid, and how to kind of navigate that. Well, when did the military kind of come into the picture? Was that something that your older brothers participated in through school? How were you introduced into that side of the world?
 
Jason Kim  06:32
Yeah so, I would say it kind of goes along with some inspirational people in my life. You know, growing up in Texas, the Space Shuttle program was a big deal. And I think you and I were 8 years old when the space shuttle Challenger event happened, and one of the astronauts that was a hero among all the astronauts on that mission was Col. Ellison Onizuka, and he made a career in the Air Force. He was a test pilot, graduated with his Ph.D., I believe, and became an astronaut, and really gave his life in many ways, to for science and for the Air Force. And so, seeing someone like that that also kind of looked like me was a good role model for me at an early age. And so that kind of got me interested in the Air Force and the Shuttle program. And then, you know, I think you and I remember when we're young, 1991 before we went to the Academy, you know, the Gulf War, and we saw on TV for this first time, all this shock and awe and Gen. Schwarzkopf and Colin Powell, and all the strategy that was used. The technology. You know, you heard about the second offset strategy with those F-117 Nighthawks, and all the flares that you would see that night. And it really just made an impression on me. It got me kind of excited about the military and all the technology that's involved. And also, you know, kind of got me into thinking about being a pilot someday. And again, you know, my dad always saying, “Hey, give back, Jason. You know, this country has given a lot to our family. Give back.” I kind of got that motivation to go into the military. And then, you know, I think we also had family friends that had some people that went to the academies, whether it's the Naval Academy or others, and got to learn a little bit from them what was it like to go to the Academy? And these were really good role models as well. So, I got with my liaison officer, which was a really great liaison officer, got me involved with what I needed to do to get more information. And went to the summer scientific seminar and spent a week on the campus and got to learn what it was like to be a cadet, somewhat.
Yeah, it was actually fun. But, you know, meeting people, meeting the upperclassmen, and they were all super nice at the time. And I also, it turns out, I met my future roommate there, and we were, yeah, we met at the summer scientific seminar. And so, lo and behold, when I go into basic cadet training, I see him there. I'm like, “Oh my gosh, you were there at the same time as me!” So it was a really great experience, and that kind of solidified it for me that I wanted to go the Air Force Academy.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  09:56
So, I mean, you had some great role models to kind of facilitate some of that interest. There was a lot of things happening in the country that, you know, we both were, were very familiar with, and it created some feelings of pride and wanting to give back. Were you always thinking about the Air Force Academy because of those motivations, or were you thinking other service academies as well?
 
Jason Kim  10:16
I think I had my heart set on the Air Force Academy. You know, I don't know if I said before, but you know, my parents had me late, later in life, and so since I was the baby of the family, by the time I got to the age of going to college, my parents were retirement age, and I was not going to put them through what they did for my older brothers, which was room, tuition, board, and all that stuff that they had to work hard to pay for. I wanted to get a scholarship somehow. And this was a way to give back to the country, get a scholarship, get a great education. Plus, you know, I applied to all the service academies. But, you know, you'll, you'll hear this later, but I wasn't the best swimmer, so I wasn't going to go to the Naval Academy. West Point was foreign to me. I just didn't know enough about the Army, and I wanted to be a pilot. So, I thought, “Hey, the Air Force Academy is the best way to do that.”
 
Naviere Walkewicz  11:17
Awesome. So, you had a great ALO (pronounced AY-low and is an Academy Liaison Officer) you know, you kind of went through the process, which, in itself, is quite a process, as we remember. And so how did you find out? When did you find out you received an appointment to the Air Force Academy?
 
Jason Kim  11:31
That was, oh, that was, you know, I've had a lot of great moments in my life, so it's, that's reaching far back. I just remember that I was super happy. You know, it was Congressman Sam Johnson of the 3rd District of Texas that, you know, gave me the nomination. He was actually an Air Force pilot and a Vietnam POW. He since passed away. But, you know, getting a nomination from a legend like that was very much an honor. You know, I also got a senatorial nomination to go to the Naval Academy, but not knowing any better, as the 18-year-old, or whatever I was, 17-year-old, I was like, “Sorry, Senator, I'm going to the Air Force Academy. Thank you very much. I'm not going to the Naval Academy.” So I was very set on going to the Air Force Academy. I was very, very happy, because it was hard to get in. I mean, one of the challenges I had as a fairly big football player in high school was the, you know, the test that you have to physical fitness tests you have to take to get into the Air Force Academy. So, you had to do all the pull ups and the runs and all that stuff. And I had to cut weight, and it really took me waking up every morning, just going through the routine of practicing all those things, and eventually got enough confidence to pass the physical fitness test and all the other things you got to go through. So, it was very rewarding to get to the point where I got in.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  13:15
That is awesome. And I can see that drive, I mean, just from your family instilled in you to get to be like you said, confident, ready to go. That's no surprise at all. So, talk about at the Academy, we know a little about your roommate. You met him in summer scientific seminar. What was your Academy experience like?
 
Jason Kim  13:35
I remember Day 1 because there are two funny things that happened. One, somehow I got lucky, and I got paired up with a NCO, enlisted person, who I wish I remembered his name. He didn't end up staying after Basic Cadet Training, so I lost touch. But what he did for me was amazing, because he already knew the drill. He was like, “Jason, you don't know how to wear BDUs, but this is how you do it. This is how you put the blouses on.” How did I luck out? I had somebody that knew what to do and was teaching me how to do it from Day 1. So very, very much grateful to that individual. I wish I could have kept in touch with him. The second funny thing is, we all had name badges. And you know, my name badge, for some reason, it said Jun Kim. And I was like, OK, that's my last name, and it's June, I think. So it makes sense. And then everybody, all the upperclassmen, were like, “Is your name Jun Kim?” I was like, “Yes, yes, sir. My name is Kim,” and I thought it was the month. But it turns out they accidentally switched my nametag with another Cadet named Jun Kim. Yeah, and so he was wearing my Jason Kim, and so, on Day 1, you know, it was very confusing, and that got me into a lot of trouble. They're like, “Do you know…,” all the things you could think of, I was getting all those kinds of comments. And so, it was quite the memorable experience. It's like, it's hard enough being a new doolie and trying to figure it out. But then when you have those kinds of incidents, it's like, it makes it even more confusing, but it was memorable.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  15:33
Oh, that's awesome. I can, literally picture this.
 
Jason Kim  15:37
That was Day 1, and then, you know, life as a cadet. They warn you of this. They warn you of the pedestal effect, where you're in high school, you're top of your game, and top of your class and you varsity letter and all that stuff. But when you get to the Academy, oh, boy, was I humbled. I mean, there were people that were smarter than me, more athletic than me, you know, better in every way. And so, I just felt very average. And in retrospect, there's nothing wrong with that, right? But just being around 1,500 cadets, you know they just were the best of the best from wherever they were. It was very, very humbling, but also rewarding, because I got to meet people from different states. I'd go on spring break to California for the first time, because I'd make friends with people that were from Northern California or Los Angeles. So, I got to meet a lot of lifelong friends that have been my support group for my entire life, you know. And every time I get together with my friends from the Academy, it's just like it was old times. It just, it's hard to explain, but you know what I'm talking about, and…
 
Naviere Walkewicz  17:02
I do. It just feels like time didn't pass.
 
Jason Kim  17:05
That's right. Some of us, like yourself, look like you do from those days. Some of us aged a little bit differently, like myself, but yeah, it was a great experience. Now, if you remember our year — our year was the first year that had the increased level of the internet and so that got a lot of people in trouble. Because, you know, “What's this internet? What do you do with it?” What we got in trouble for in my class was we played a lot of online games, you know, in first-person kind of games. So, I remember there was a game called Quake, and it was a lot of us just playing together in our in our dorm rooms and spending a little bit too much time on that. And then I remember other video games, like Goldeneye on Nintendo, and it just sucked so much time out of our days that, in retrospect, it's like, “What were we doing?” So, I guess you could say we were kind of old-school video gamers back in the day.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  18:20
It's funny. I was just going to ask you, we knew that you were getting into electrical engineering. What else were you doing? So, it sounds like it wasn't football, but it was Nintendo.
 
Jason Kim  18:30
I really loved sports. So, I loved taking all the intramural sports and the classes like golf and tennis, and I got into rugby for a little bit, for a minute, which I really enjoyed, but it's not a very forgiving sport, so that didn't last that long. But, you know, I think just the camaraderie you get playing sports like that was fun, and I think from the academic side, you know, I did go into electrical engineering, so I did all the nerdy stuff. That's probably why we didn't cross paths. Also, you probably weren't at the robotics competitions that we were doing, because that's really nerdy. But we got into doing little Roomba robot construction before Roombas existed, and we created our own Pac Man, you know, handheld games from scratch using a box of parts and processors. And my senior design project was pretty interesting. My classmate and I decided to make a digital karaoke machine. You know, using everything we learned from electrical engineering and apply it to something fun. I just remember us just trying to make the most of it with our friends and our classmates, and trying to make it fun, because it could be a lot. I took a lot of semester credit hours my freshman year. I just remember something like 22-plus credit hours. It was just a lot, and you really needed a way to recharge. And so those were some of the ways. But of course, the skiing was amazing. You know, being so close in proximity to all the ski resorts, like Breckenridge and Copper Mountain and Vail — all those great places. So those were always fun things to do. I had my first bowl of pho in Denver.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  20:49
In Denver?
 
Jason Kim  20:52
I remember that vividly. I went to one of my first concerts, Smashing Pumpkins at the Nuggets center. And then I got to go to Red Rocks. So, there was a lot of cultural things that I got to be a part of, too.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  21:09
I love that. So some of the things that you expressed, and I think this is great for our listeners, because, you know, sometimes some of some of our guests have been very, I don't say tunnel vision, but there's very, like, one track they've been really dedicated to, like one aspect. You know, obviously we have to do military, academic and, you know, physical fitness, athleticism, but there's kind of one track that they really hone in on.
It seems like you really kind of experienced a lot, and through all of that, I might ask, what were some of the leadership lessons you picked up and learning about yourself, because you kind of talked about that pedestal effect, right? You were really kind of high coming from high school, and then you came to the Academy, and you kind of had to rediscover yourself in a different way. And it looked like you did that. What did you learn?
 
Jason Kim  21:53
Yeah, so some of the leadership things that I would say, that I got exposed to — and it made me kind of think about it and much later in life, kind of reinforce it — was just to be curious. A lot of times as leaders, you can jump to conclusions but I think one technique that is very helpful, no matter what industry you're in, is just be curious. You know, when you have employees, you could hold folks accountable but be curious about it. Ask the right questions. “Is everything OK? Do you have enough support? Do you have the tools, training to do what you need to? How's your family life?” That kind of stuff. So, I think you could be very curious and compassionate and graceful in terms of leadership, and that's partly learning from good leaders, but also bad leaders that didn't do that. So, I think you got to see both sides as a cadet, and you always want to pick the good leaders and emulate the good behaviors and leave out the bad. So that's one thing I would say. You know, we got this drilled into us, and we didn't even know at the time how important it was. But building that trust with your teams — that's extremely empowering and motivating when you trust someone else, and they trust you, and you can go much, much further when you build that trust up. And then the last thing I would say is, I think we were one of the first classes that had noncommissioned officers alongside with AOCs (Air Officer Commanding) that were there to teach us about mutual respect, about mutual respect between officers and noncommissioned officers. And I think that went a long ways for all of us, because once we went to the real Air Force, we were going to lead a lot of officers and NCOs and getting that kind of exposure early on was helpful. But also learning about mutual respect — that's something that is extremely important in any work setting that you're in. So those are kind of three examples of leadership, things that I would say I remember from the Academy that are also still important today.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  24:35
I think that's wonderful. Maybe you'll even share an example where you saw either curiosity, compassion or mutual respect really play a role in your professional or personal life after the Academy, but before we get there, I remember you talking about wanting to maybe get into space, right? The astronaut program, be a pilot. How did that all shape out? Because you were an electrical engineer, and then what?
 
Jason Kim  24:58
So, I really wanted to be a pilot. And for some reason, I really liked the C-17, the Globemaster. And I think it's because it was a fly-by-wire kind of system. It was a stick, but it was like more of a commercial airline-kind of transport plane. So, it was a blend of — fighter pilots use sticks but it was still kind of an air mobility command-kind of system. But, you know, unfortunately, my eyesight, my color deficiency, just didn't allow me to go into that track. So, I really just leaned on and doubled down on my electrical engineering background and got to go to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base as my first assignment. And there I was an engineer-slash-project-manager working on uncrewed aerial vehicles before they became popular. So, things like the Global Hawk and the Predator, UAVs, those were things that I was getting exposed to, and I got to put payloads on. If you remember, in the 1999 timeframe, there were Hellfire missiles put on the Predator. I was there when that was happening. And so, it was just very, very amazing to see all that happen before my eyes. I got to work on the U2 and put payloads on the U2 and other very important missions. And I think that exposed me to the real Air Force. Even though I wasn't flying, I got exposed to assets that actually went into the theater and were very valuable. And then from there, I got assigned to L.A. Air Force Base, and finally got to live out my dream of living in Los Angeles, and was assigned to the Space Superiority Material Wing, and that's where we were acquiring satellites and ground systems to help protect our freedom in space. And so, I learned a lot about space there and ground systems. And, you know, after several years working there, I decided I wanted to go into industry. And so, I did two things. I went to a large aerospace company and became a program manager there. You know, now, in charge of designing and building these satellites. So I went part time to UCLA to get my fully employed MBA, just knowing that I wasn't going to know everything about industry. I wasn't going to know everything about how to be part of a company, and so I wanted to kind of learn more about that side of the industry by getting an MBA. Unbeknownst to me, the MBA wasn't just about company operations and finances, it was actually about leadership. And so, I got a lot of leadership lessons from my MBA program as well. So, it gave me a lot of confidence. And what I mean by that is confidence in just going with your gut, taking risks, getting into high-risk, high-reward situations. And it's because I learned about, the company financials, the underpinnings of a company. I learned about entrepreneurism, what it what it's like to start up a company or operate a company or go through different case studies of how to turn around a company. I learned a lot about accounting and how important and valuable that is. But then most of all, I learned a lot from my classmates. And there were people from the Hollywood industry or investment banking or the medical industry. So, it was really great to learn from my classmates. It got me to conference level where I was like, “Hey, what am I doing at this company? I want to take a risk and go to a startup company.” And I did. I took that leap of faith, and that's where our first, you know, joined Millennium Space Systems, which was a small startup company when it was 20 people. But it was something that I guess I go back to the Air Force Academy where, you know, there's that quote in the Eagle and Fledgling statue that says, “Man's flight through life is sustained by the power of his knowledge.” That kind of always stuck with me and it's one of those things where, when you join a startup company, and you help grow it, and eventually we sold the company to Boeing, you learn so much. I mean, I had five different hats, you know, and I had to learn about finance, program management, business development, engineering, integration and test, all that stuff, mission operations — you learn all those things by doing, and no one will ever be able to take that knowledge away. You just, you just get it for life.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  30:34
Wow, there's, there's so much that, I mean, you covered such a span, because I'm imagining, you know, maybe I don't want to call — maybe “gift” is not the right word, but not being able to be a pilot might have been something that opened up obviously these opportunities for you in ways that you could not have even foreseen. So, I actually wanted to go back to that really quick and just ask, how did you, how did you kind of re-change your thoughts or shape your mindset to, “OK, well, it's not that. So, what's next?” And how did you handle that? Because I think some of our listeners find themselves in situations where, “Well, if I do all these things, then it will lead to this.” But sometimes there are things outside of your control that even if you do all the things, you can't get there.
 
Jason Kim  31:20
Well, I think, first of all, I'll always be a fan of pilots and aviators and all these fighters and bombers and transport airplanes — I definitely bleed blue still to this day. So, I definitely appreciate all of our classmates that have sacrificed so much to fly in the Air Force and defend us. That's kind of my mindset is, “What can I do to still contribute to the mission to national security?” And so as long as that was kind of my guide-star, I was fine, because I knew that I was contributing to the mission in some way, whether it be acquiring platforms and putting payloads on those platforms to go support our classmates, or today, you know, designing and building systems and operating systems that end up helping national security. It's really the mindset of, “What can I do to help and make a difference, to help defend our country?” So that's how my mindset shifted, because it takes all of us to contribute what we each contribute to make these missions work. And so that's kind of where my head was at.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  32:50
I think that's fantastic advice. And there's this theme that's been woven since you talked about your parents, and I think it's this, you know, looking forward and investing in yourself and educating yourself. And so along this path, you've done those things. You're also a family man. When did that kind of come to fruition and how does your family feel about when you joining startups and taking risks and doing some of these things?
 
Jason Kim  33:16
It goes back to my dad. He gave me a lot of great advice when he was still around, and one of the advice was just sharing his regrets. You know, a lot of people thought he was my grandfather because he had me so late. Really,there's something to be said about that. He was very wise. He had a lot of experience in life, and he had global experience and had seen so many different hardships and overcome them. And he would always say, “Hey, I wish I would have taken, you know, that risk and left my company and joined my other co-workers to go start up that other company.” That actually happened. He had co-workers that ended up starting up a different old drilling company in Texas, and he thought it was too much risk at the time. He regrets that, because obviously those people that went over at the time they did, they did well for themselves. So he would tell me stories like that, and really all that wisdom he would just try to share with me from a young age. And it's hard to admit, but at some point in your, all of our lives, we start to realize how right our parents were sometimes, and so, you know, a lot of the risk taking that I'm doing, that I have done, stems from advice that my dad gave me. It's like, “Hey, go for it. Take the risks. Don't have those regrets.” And so, I think I have lived my life in that manner — just minimize the regrets and take some risk and take calculated risk and really be confident with yourself and double down on yourself. So, yeah, absolutely.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  35:12
I love that. And your family obviously doubles down on — yeah.
 
Jason Kim  35:16
I mean, I had kids late in life. I really enjoy spending time with my kids. That's how I recharge. You know, I've got a son that's turning 9 this month, and a daughter that turned 6 a couple months ago, and just watching them grow up and be curious and learn and ask questions and try different things out. You know, we try not to push things on our kids, and I'm the same way. I'm not trying to push anything on my kids, but I do want to give them a lot of opportunities that I wish I had, and just expose them to those opportunities, because you just never know which one takes off and which one really resonates with them. And so that's kind of my mindset right now is, “How can I give my son and daughter as many opportunities as possible so that they could figure it out on their own what they want to do,” right?
 
Naviere Walkewicz  36:09
Well, even the words that you used, you kind of talked about some of those lessons that you took away as a cadet, and you are seeing it in your children, with the way that they ask questions and the way that they explore. So, I think you have kind of taken those and pass it into your legacy line. I do want to ask a question, because we always find it fascinating when we learn more about our guests. So, do you have a hidden talent that you might share with our listeners?
 
 
Jason Kim  36:35
I do. I wish I could say it's something that is so fascinating. But really, it's just some something that I could — I could draw and paint really well, and it was something that I just noticed when I was very young. You know, I learned from my older brothers, and they were pretty good at it, too, but I learned at an earlier age than them, and so I've always been able to sketch and draw realistic pictures. When I was younger, drawing Lamborghinis. Because I always wanteda Lamborghini Countach. They don't make those cars in the price points that I would like, so I don't have one today. But I was always drawing things. And, you know, recently, I started painting as well, and it was crazy. I had never done oil painting before, and when I had my first child, my son, whatever got into me, I just picked up a brush and painted a picture of him, and it actually looks like him. And we did a side by side, like picture of him smiling, and the painting of him smiling. It definitely captures his essence, because I never got training or anything. And so, I would say that's my hidden talent. It was even hidden for me. And, you know, it's just amazing — just go for it. Just go do it. And that's one of the things that I would recommend to people that are wanting to go the Air Force Academy is just get out of your comfort zone and do as many things as you can early on, even before going to the Academy. You know, learn different languages. Just learn as much as you can. Learn lifetime sports. Take lessons of swimming or golf or tennis — all those kind of things. Just do as much as you can, because you'll get busy when you're at the Air Force Academy and you'll have less time to do all the things you want to do. But even when you're in industry and you're working, you don't have as much time to go do that kind of stuff. And you may not think you have a lot of time during junior high or high school, but you do, and you should take advantage of just learning as much as you can, and you'll appreciate it later in life when you go travel to Paris or travel to different places like Thailand or, you know, Japan. You know, if you learn those languages, you can explore those places even more in a way that you know is more enriching, and that gets me to that's what I want to do more of, is travel, travel globally with my family. I think that's something that I want to expose my kids to. And a lot of times you grow up in the United States and you start thinking, “Hey, there's only one way to think about stuff.” But when you travel — and I got to travel for work to Paris a couple years — it opened my eyes. It opened my eyes to a different world and how other people think and dress and go about their daily lives. I've also gotten to London recently for work, and that was eye opening as well, and been to Southeast Asia as well. So, it's just fascinating to go to this these different places and learn the cultures and talk the languages and meet the people. It's very enriching.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
So how many languages do you speak?
 
Jason Kim
So, I grew up learning Korean so I can speak a little bit of Korean. I obviously took Spanish because I grew up in Texas, and that Spanish is a very valuable language in Texas, even in California. And because I took Spanish, you know, when I get to the Air Force Academy, what do they do? They said, “Hey, we don't want you to take Spanish. We want you to be the handful of people that takes Arabic.” So, I got the privilege to take Arabic. I got volunteered into it, and it was very, very difficult for me, because I just had no background in it. I struggled with it. But the silver lining is that I learned about a new culture, and I learned about how to write right to left and, you know, just a new language and new foods that go along with it, too. So I really appreciated that. In hindsight, at the time I didn't think it was that easy, but in hindsight, I wish I would have done more and kept the fluency in it, because learning a different language means you can talk to a different group of people, and you can learn more or teach each other new things. So, it just opens a lot of doors.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  42:02
So, the experiences you've had, both from the Academy and the languages and throughout your career, both professionally as well. It's personally, what's something that you've taken back from those experiences that you might share with a listener that maybe hasn't had that kind of exposure, that they can bring to the leadership table. And how do you use that at yours?
 
Jason Kim  42:20
I think it just goes back to what it touched on before, is just the curiosity. Just always be curious. You know, I think Ted Lasso had it right. Just be curious, right? If you had just asked questions about, “Hey, did you throw darts when you were younger?” Oh, if you would have known that you would have known that Ted lasso was really good at darts. I think just being curious and being an active listener and asking questions and listening to other people, sometimes people want to vent, or sometimes people want to just be heard or have a voice, or, most of the time, people just have good ideas. And you know, it's all about, “Hey, did I miss something? Did you miss something? Did we both miss something?” If you get all those great ideas and you share it amongst different people from different backgrounds and walks of life, you don't miss as much and you're just better off, you'll have a better solution. And in my industry, you have a better design, you have a better result, performance result. And so, I would just say, just be curious.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  43:29
What did your road back to the Academy look like? You know, now you're part of a board of (USAFA) Foundation directors, and so you talked about learning from your dad and your mom, always about giving back. So, I have to think that's probably been part of was in the back of your mind. But how did that all come together?
 
Jason Kim  43:44
You know, I had no road map to do the job that I'm in right now. I never anticipated doing this job, and I also didn't anticipate being on the board of directors for the Air Force Academy Foundation. But I had folks reach out from, you know, the Air Force Academy Foundation, and ask me, “Hey, do you know what we do? You're a big football fan. Are you aware there's a Falcon Stadium renovation?” And I was like, “No, tell me more.” And with that first visit, I actually donated right away, I was like, “I'm on board. Sign me up. I want to donate to this because I believe in it.” You know, Falcon Stadium was where we graduated, right? It's such a memorable place. We saw a lot of football games there. And so, it means so much. So, I was all about donating to that cause. And then I would say that the second time around, when the same person came back and said, just to check up on me — he had mentioned, “Hey, there's this foundation, and they're looking for someone that has a space background, and you have a space background. So, are you interested in potentially coming to a board meeting?” When I went and attended the board meeting as a guest, I just stared around the room, and I was just in awe, because there was Paul Kaminski, who's, to me, is one of my role models in terms of all that he's done for the country and continues to do for the country. And he was on the academic committee. And so, of course, I wanted to join the academic committee. I saw Gen. Eberhardt. I saw Gen. Born, and there were just so many amazing people, Paul Madera, that I was just in awe. And, you know, from that respect, I was like, “Sign me up. I want to be a part of this.” And I saw them and how much they cared about the Academy and the cadets and making sure that the Academy kind of stayed relevant and was giving the cadets the best education that they can to compete with the Stanfords and MITs and the Harvards, I really saw a good cause, and then the fact that they were interested in my space background. I said, “Yeah, I definitely want to be part of whatever I could do to contribute to the Air Force Academy, to graduate not only people that are going to go to the Air Force, but also to the Space Force.” And so that's something I hope to contribute to is maybe someday a future space education center at the Air Force Academy, so that the cadets could get a great education and be future leaders in the Space Force as well.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  46:53
Well, it certainly makes a difference. And I think I remember seeing you at that first board meeting that you participated in. I was so excited to see you. That was like, oh, ’99s in the house. So that was wonderful. Yes, well, I have two questions left. The first one is, really, I want to just ask you, because we've covered so much, and you've given such wonderful, I think, advice and just perspective. But is there anything that I didn't ask you that you had wanted to, you know, talk about today?
 
Jason Kim  47:20
You know, I think at the end of the day, going through the Air Force Academy is extremely challenging, but after you graduate, and after you go through life experiences, all the hardships, the challenges, what I've realized is going through the Academy kind of helped me overcome what I had to overcome in my adult life and in my industry life. We didn't like it at the time but breaking you down and then building you back up and making you get up back again every time you fall down, gives you life lessons and a confidence in yourself that you can kind of do anything that you put your mind to. I really believe that the Air Force Academy kind of helped me overcome a lot of different hardships in my life. You don't really realize that going through it, but later in life, I appreciate the fact that I went there and getting through there actually gave me the confidence that I could get back up and be OK and keep growing and continuously learn and get better and improve. So that's kind of something that I could attribute to the Air Force Academy.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  48:49
Oh, that is awesome. And, I mean, and it's obviously taken you to new heights. Leading a corporation is no small feat. So,  one of the things we really like to do is make sure we kind of hear the takeaways, from you to our listeners. So, it's really kind of a message to them. But before we do that and get your final thoughts, I just wanted to offer a note of thanks to our listeners for being here on the Long Blue Leadership. The podcast drops every two weeks on Tuesdays and is available on all your favorite podcast apps. Be sure to send us your thoughts and comments at socialmedia@usafa.org, and listen to past episodes at longblueleadership.org  So, Jason, I want to come back to you now, because I hope that gave you a little bit of time to think about what is the message you'd like to share to our listeners. And our listeners are far and wide. We have those aspiring to go to the Academy, we have family members of cadets, and we have graduates all alike. What would you like to share when you think about kind of your experiences in the realm of leadership?
 
Jason Kim  49:48
To them, I think the Air Force Academy is a great place to graduate from. It's really hard to get through. So, be really proud of your sons and daughters that are going through it and persevering, and it really is a great experience for them. For those that are prospective students: You're going to get to do things that you never could do anywhere else. You know, jump out of planes fly gliders, eventually go into the Air Force or Space Force. And then for graduates, we've made so many lifelong friends, and we've made so many memories. It's something we can all do is give back, whether it's — go march back from Jacks Valley, or go to the reunion this year for our 25th reunion for the class of ’99, or go to some football games. The Foundation has plenty of great, noble causes to donate to, because it's all about that Long Blue Line. We want the next set of cadets to get an even better experience in education than we did. We want to keep it going.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  51:12
It is always a pleasure to not only hear your voice, but today, I got to see you as well. That just brings me such joy, and I can't wait until our reunion, just in a couple of months as well. Thank you so much for your time today, Jason, it's been amazing. Lil’ Kim, thank you. Bye.
 
KEYWORDS
Jason Kim, Firefly Aerospace, Air Force Academy, immigrant parents, work ethic, space shuttle program, Gulf War, military career, pedestal effect, curiosity, compassion, trust, mutual respect, leadership, CEO, curiosity, compassion, mutual respect, electrical engineering, startup, satellites, taking risks, giving back
 
 
The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation
 
 
 

A conversation with 2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23, the first active duty military member to be crowned Miss America 2024, about her  background, leadership experiences, transition to Harvard Kennedy School, and key lessons on empathetic leadership and following one's passions.
 
SUMMARY
Second Lieutenant Madison Marsh, the first active-duty military member and Miss America 2024, discussed her journey and leadership experiences. She highlighted her foundation for pancreatic cancer research, her academic achievements, and her role as a mentor at the Air Force Academy. Marsh emphasized the importance of empathetic leadership, mental health support, and balancing personal and professional life. She shared her transition from aspiring to be an astronaut to focusing on public policy and her current studies at Harvard Kennedy School. Marsh underscored the significance of passion, support from family and mentors, and the impact of diverse perspectives on leadership.
 
OUR FAVORITE QUOTES
"Don't ask your people to do something that you are not willing to do yourself." - Second Lieutenant Madison Marsh
"Your life is too short to live it for someone else or to do things that you are not passionate about." - Second Lieutenant Madison Marsh
"I knew that if I put 100% into something I'm passionate about, the outcome and the impact that I'm gonna have is going to be far greater than forcing myself into this idea of who other people want me to be." - Second Lieutenant Madison Marsh
"Leaning on people, whether it is your partner or a loved one, that is how you're going to succeed in life." - Second Lieutenant Madison Marsh
"Being an empathetic leader, being a leader who goes by example. So don't ask your people to do something that you are not willing to do yourself."
- 2nd Lieutenant Madison Marsh
 
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CHAPTERS
00:00:  Empathetic Leadership: The Foundation of Success
02:43:  Journey to the Air Force Academy: A Personal Story
11:33:  Overcoming Tragedy: The Power of Support
16:18:  Leadership Lessons from the Academy
28:31:  Navigating Career Changes: Finding Passion
45:02:  Key Takeaways: Empathy and Passion in Leadership
 
 
TAKEWAYS
Embrace empathetic leadership - Truly understanding and supporting your team members, even when they are struggling, is crucial for effective leadership.
Lead by example - As a leader, you should be willing to do anything you ask of your team and not ask them to do something you wouldn't do yourself.
Follow your passions - Pursuing work and activities you are truly passionate about will lead to greater fulfillment and impact than forcing yourself into a path for others.
Build a strong support network - Relying on partners, mentors, and loved ones can provide the encouragement and guidance needed to overcome challenges.
Prioritize self-care - Taking time for your own mental, physical, and emotional well-being is essential to being an effective leader and avoiding burnout.
 
 
ABOUT MADISON
Second Lieutenant Madison Marsh, crowned Miss America 2024, poses in a Colorado Air National Guard hanger on Buckley Space Force Base on August 7, 2024. Marsh embodies service in and out of uniform, proving that you can achieve your dreams and goals while serving in the United States Air Force.  Image Credit:  Ms. Miram Thurber, Air Force Recruiting Service Public Affairs
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh, USAFA class of ’23, and Miss America 2024 is the first active-duty member of the military to hold the title.  She is also the first such title holder in 50 years for Colorado. She attained her private pilot license at the age of 16. She is a highly accomplished humanitarian, scholar and service member. After the loss of her mother in 2018 to pancreatic cancer, she established a foundation to raise funds for research to fight the disease. When she became a cadet, she excelled in her physics and astronomy studies, winning a Truman scholarship and is now pursuing her master’s in public policy at Harvard Kennedy School.  
 
CONNECT WITH MADISON
Instagram:  @‌missamerica  |  @‌madiisabellaa
 
 
ABOUT LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP
Long Blue Leadership drops every two weeks on Tuesdays and is available on Apple Podcasts, TuneIn + Alexa, Spotify and all your favorite podcast platforms. Search @AirForceGrads on your favorite social channels for Long Blue Leadership news and updates!
    
 
 
FULL TRANSCRIPT
OUR SPEAKERS
Guest, 2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  |  Host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz ’99
Naviere Walkewicz  00:22
My guest today is Second Lieutenant Madison Marsh, USAFA Class of 23 and newly crowned Miss America.  This is a first for an active-duty member of the military and one for the Colorado history books in that she is the first such title holder in 50 years for the Academy's home state. But there is much, much more to Lieutenant Marsh, including her attaining a private pilot's license at the age of 16. She is a highly accomplished humanitarian, scholar and service member. After the very difficult loss of her mother in 2018 to pancreatic cancer, she established a foundation to raise funds for research and to fight the disease. When she became a cadet, she excelled in physics and astronomy, earning a Truman Scholarship, and is now pursuing her Master's in Public Policy at Harvard Kennedy School. We'll talk with Lieutenant Marsh about her most meaningful and impactful experiences at the Academy in research, athletics, leadership and character development. We'll discuss her speaker role at this year's National Character and Leadership Symposium, and ask how her new role as a national speaker and influencer informs her mission and message. And finally, we'll have the lieutenant share a few takeaways on leadership and character development with you, our listeners. Lieutenant Marsh, welcome to Long Blue Leadership. We're so glad to have you.
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23 
Thank you so much for having me.
Naviere Walkewicz  Absolutely. And before we dive in, as we normally do, we'd love to know how things have been going since you've been crowned.
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  01:51
It has been very, very busy. I've been really lucky that the Air Force decided to keep me on active duty this year, because not only am I getting to serve in a uniform like this, but I'm also getting to serve in that crown and sash. And so, there's so many different experiences that I've gotten to have, whether it's a mixture of days that I'm going and promoting the military, or days that I'm doing a very different type of service. So I never know what I'm gonna’ get every day that I wake up on the job. So it's been pretty cool.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  02:16
That is awesome. Can you share something that's really stuck out to you as just really memorable?
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  02:21
So far, one of my favorite trips that we went on was Normandy for the D-Day anniversary, and I loved it because I had actually gone there last year, right after I commissioned with my fiancé, that was one of the first things we saw as officers. And now getting to go back with a year under my belt with a very different experience, I got to really see that history for like firsthand again. And I just think every time that I look at those headstones, it reminds me of what it means to put on our uniform, what our flag really means to me. And now being able to have that firsthand experience and sharing that with students across the nation, because I want people to understand what it means to serve every day, to hopefully invite people to come and join us and get excited about what service is.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  03:06
Oh, that's incredible. And, I mean, I think just to reiterate your commitment to service, and then to be able to see how you carry that message through history, I think is really powerful. Oh, that's amazing. I imagine that it's been a whirlwind, and you're looking forward to much more as well. Yes, does it feel like it's flown by?
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  03:21
Yes, I feel, I think I have, like, four and a half months left. And I mean, every day I wake up and it's like three weeks later apparently.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  03:31
Well, I’m sure that to you it feels like it's flying by, but to everyone else it's a moment in time that they can really connect with you. So, your message is so powerful. We're glad that you're representing. Well, we'd love to dive into our podcast so our listeners can get to know you a little bit more and really experience leadership through your journey. So, we like to start by going into childhood. Okay, do you mind sharing a little bit about what you were like as young girl?
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  03:55
Oh, let's see. I'd always loved science. Okay, so that was the big thing. I had wanted to be a paleontologist, a volcanologist. I wanted to be a scientist that lived with gorillas and studied them in the forest, which was…
 
Naviere Walkewicz  04:08
Was that inspired by a movie, or just…
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  04:10
I don't know where that even started from. I think I was like, that sounds cool. My parents were like, What is she talking about then? And then, kind of going more into junior high, I wanted to be a marine biologist, and because I went on submarine biology camp, that was what sparked my interest in space, so that I had a very big shift that brought me to wanting to be an astronaut, which is ultimately why I ended up at the Academy. So, there was all these little things of interest throughout science my whole life that now made me put on the uniform.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  04:42
So Wow, very long, weird journey to get there. Well, I'm sure it was an adventure for you and your family. Yes, are you an only child? Or do you have siblings?
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  04:47
I'm one of five. So, we are a mixed family. I have three older half siblings and older brother Nick, older brother Chris, older sister Sarah. Then there's me and my younger sister, Heidi. So, big family.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  04:59
Yes, and they’re all adventurous like you?
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  05:01
I would say so. I think we're all very different, like my older brothers, they were the huge athletes in our high school. I was not as much of an athlete in high school like I still loved fitness and gym, but I was the band geek. I was the one that was on Quiz Bowl and Science Bowl. My brothers did not. They didn't have the same interest in high school but now they're loving, like, they work in the tech industry. My older sister works in the tech industry. So, I'd say all of my siblings, now that we're in our adulthood, are very focused on, like, all STEM careers. So, it's been cool.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  05:36
That is amazing. And I love that you mentioned, you know, being a band geek. And I think a lot of people wonder, “Can I, what does that look like down the road?” And just to embrace, I think, our passion? So, what did you play?
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  05:46
So, I played clarinet and contrabass clarinet. So that's like the big six foot tall…
 
Naviere Walkewicz  05:52
Oh my goodness.
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  05:52
I was this tiny little kid in the ninth grade. Whenever I got to play contrabass, they have to put you on this really tall chair. And so, there's very hilarious videos of me that my family basically uses this blackmail of me playing that journey. I was so proud of it when I brought it home, my parents were like, oh, it's six feet tall. When I brought it home, they were like, “Why was Madison picked for this? She's gonna’ be playing this in the house all day.” And it's this really deep, extremely loud noise. And they're like, “Okay, we thought we could deal with the clarinet, but this is, this is next level.”
 
Naviere Walkewicz  06:27
Well, I guess you know the good thing about that, it wasn't a drum set, right?
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  06:30
That's true. There's grateful for that. Absolutely.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  06:34
Wow, so you all got involved in STEM. Do you have military members in your family as well that you knew? That's when you said astronaut and Air Force Academy that helped guide that for you or no?
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  06:43
So my grandfather had served, but I had never met him. He passed away, I believe, either whenever I was like a newborn, or maybe a couple years prior, so that, I guess, didn't really influence my decision in the military. The biggest part of it was when I went to space camp in junior high, and I met a bunch of astronauts there. And so, after hearing story after story from them, and getting to go and do really cool experiments, like at space camp, you're building rockets, you're pretending to be an astronaut, like we did a mission to Mars where I got to be a botanist. And so, all of that really influenced my decision on how do I become an astronaut? And so, the story I kept hearing was all of them, for the most part, that I'd met were in the military. They were test pilots, they were fighter pilots. So, I started to figure out, how can I go down that path? Discovered the Air Force Academy and knew that was going to be one of the best places to getting a pilot slot, and even though I am not going down that astronaut path anymore because of those initial dreams and those aspirations that has opened up so many doors now for the rest of my career. So, it's been cool to see how it's evolved over time as I've grown up.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  07:46
Oh, that's amazing. And I think it's part of what you've learned in your journey is there's a bit of, like, flexibility and kind of, you know, learning along the way. So, it sounds like you did some of that even as a young girl. Okay, so how did you get into the Academy? You applied? Was it just kind of the typical application process? Did you talk to a lot of other cadets? I'm just curious what that looked like for you.
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  08:08
I think I don't know if I spoke to a ton of cadets at the beginning. I remember I used to watch on YouTube, like while I was getting ready for bed, I would watch videos of like the jump team, or different anything from the Academy. And I was like, that is where I need to be. And we have a cool thing at our school where they have an entire military day. It's like on a Saturday. So, they bring every branch. They have people that represent active duty, reserve, guard, all of the academies, enlisted officer, anything that you could think of. They have them set up all in our hallway. And I knew at that point that I wanted to go to the Academy. And so, what I did is I basically printed out all of my essays that I knew that people had had to submit in the past for the Academy. I did resumes. I came with my GPA, everything, and I walked right up to my congressman, and I handed it to him, and I said, I went to him, and I said, “I want to go to the Air Force Academy, and I want to be your nominee.” And I'm sure he was like, “Who's this?” So, I was very firm early on, and so we were able to start an incredible relationship with one another. And so, because I did that, I think that was maybe my junior year, early on in my junior year, when it came time my senior year, he fought for me all of the time to get my application in front of people, because I was his principal nominee, and we had a very, very special moment. So, he called me on October 31, and told me that I had gotten early acceptance to the Academy, and so I got to tell my mom, and the next morning, she passed away. So having an experience like that is… that's why the Academy and Congressman Womack are so special to me, because that was my dream for years, and my mom got to know before she passed away. And it's just everything happens at the right timing, and you never know until afterwards. And so now I get to be here. Now I get to wear the uniform, and even though she hasn’t gotten to see it, she got to know about it. And just because of those first instances where I marched up to him and I said, like, “I want to be here.” I got to have experiences like that. And now I get to have wonderful experiences of now serving post Academy life.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  10:16
I think what you just shared was so powerful in multiple ways. I think the first way is, you know, really being clear and what you wanted to do and to not, you know, take a step back and accept anything, unless you walked right up to him and said, This is what I want to do. You establish yourself, I think, and then to have, I think, that moment where he did fight for you and before your mom passed, having that, I mean, I can't even… Just share thank you for sharing that with me.
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  10:45
He is also a huge part of all the scholarships and applications I've ever done. Anytime that I've ever needed someone to write me a recommendation letter. Congressman Womack has been one of the first people to do it. And I remember when I got the Truman Scholarship. I had asked them, like, what do I need to do for the because I was going to go and compete for the Rhodes and Marshall Scholarship the next year. And I was like, what were the strongest parts and what were the weakest parts of my application? And they said one of my strongest parts of my application, literally, was the letter that he wrote. They said that, like, you never get to see what they write, because they have to submit it to a portal. You're not allowed to look. And they were like, what he put in there, put everything like, pushed it far, far past the line. And I'll never know what he said, but I'm extremely grateful for him always believing in me. He actually had a really cool moment after I won Miss America this past year, he went on the floor of Congress and, like, read out all this stuff about what we had done together, being from his home district and growing up there, so it's been really cool to see how our relationship has evolved over time, because he has always supported he's such a big military promoter, and just getting to have that relationship and also use him as a mentor when times were tough at the Academy, being able to call him up and being like, I'm struggling. I know you helped me get in here, but I'm struggling right now. And he was always there to have an open mind to kind of guide me through, to make sure that I made it out at the end of the day.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  12:12
Wow. I think having those champions in life not only help us get through things, but help shape us that we will be champions for others in the future. Do you see that something that kind of was ingrained in you from that experience?
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  12:22
Yes, I think, I mean, we were kind of talking about this earlier, about how I reflect on all of my experiences and look at the fact that I would have accomplished nothing without the people that had helped me, and I now want to be that person, even if it's only a little fraction in someone else's life to help them, because they recognize you don't go anywhere alone, you don't accomplish anything alone. And there have been countless mentors, teachers, family members, loved ones, that had poured into me, and now it's my turn to give that back to them.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  12:51
Amazing. So, you got into the Academy, it was a beautiful thing for you and your family, and while you were there, that's when you formed the foundation. Is that what I'm understanding from a timing perspective?
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  13:03
So, I started the foundation my senior year of high school. So, my mom had passed away, and it was something that my family started literally two weeks afterwards, because watching my mom go through everything, I had recognized that we need to give something positive back to people. And a big part of just pancreatic cancer, is that educational aspect of making sure families around the nation know the signs, the warning, the warning signs, the symptoms. Because that was something that we had no clue with my mom. She was 41 years old when she was diagnosed and passed away. It was a very, very quick turnaround, and so we started it then, then I went off to the Academy. So that's something that I have fun doing on the side and learning a lot of leadership through that as well, because now we've expanded, and I lead about 20 volunteers from across the nation, and it is something that I have not done before, especially like virtually, since we have people all over. So that has been a very big learning lesson this past year, and now I'm getting to use all the cool stuff from the Academy to figure out how to lead people in and out of uniform, because that's something that has been a huge part of my life at the academy, was making sure we serve outside of this, because we have so much time. And I think at the Academy, you often feel like your life only exists inside of the black gates, but there's so much that you can do for people outside of that before you even put on the uniform every day.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  14:22
I think that's really powerful in sharing that because, you know, I think about your family, and first, I just want to thank you for sharing that difficult time. Because, you know, listeners, we have all different experiences in life, and you know, we all experience, at times, some kind of tragedy. And I think sharing how you found a way you and your family to work through that, and, like you said, kind of provide a perspective for others. You know, maybe if I could just touch on that, and we can, we can move forward while you're at the cadet, when you're a cadet. But can you just touch on, you know, how might you suggest someone find a way to get through some tragedy, maybe through a lens of leadership? Or if they're helping others that are experiencing tragedy.
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  15:03
I think there were two really big parts for me. One of them was knowing when to ask for help. That is something that I talk about in academics, and that is something that I also talk about in personal life, because I wouldn't have been able to make it through the Academy had I not received help. So, one of the things that I did whenever I went through basic like I tried to quit on the first day because I was really struggling with obviously, the Academy is difficult and grieving at the same time. So, one of the things that I did to ensure that I would stay was I started seeing a therapist up on the hill. I saw chaplains all the time. I continued that through most of my freshman year, well into covid when I got sent home in 2020 because I knew that there was no way I could be able to lead in the classroom, in uniform, be there for my friends if I couldn't help myself first. So that is the first big step. It is takes a lot of courage and strength to receive help, and I think that is something, a stigma,that we're all having to overcome and change the narrative surrounding the conversation of mental health, you are strong if you get help, and everyone around you is here to help you, and I think as a friend, also being inviting, being conscious of the types of conversations about when other people that you don't know are having to receive help. Because there were definitely times that people had said about me like, “Oh, Madison's just trying to get out of training,” or, you know, you hear things like that. And so I knew that when I became a sophomore, that whoever I was leading, the one freshman that I was going to be in charge of, I could always be a safe space for them and ensuring that anytime, if they needed to go see chaplain, no questions asked, I would be there to walk them to and from the chaplain, whatever anybody needed, because I understand that that sort of help can be life-saving, and we have to be able to invite those sorts of conversations in and allow people to receive the help that they need. And I think that kind of follows throughout the entire culture of your squadron or Air Force wide, and it starts with one person, one leader, being inviting and accepting of those that need help.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  17:02
That’s so powerful, and I'm so glad that you shared that, because I do think sometimes people might think asking for help is weak, or if I just hide it, then no one knows. But I think you're right. Courage is asking for help and receiving it, and that one person like you said you champion someone else, they will do that. So, you just created this train effect of, you know, support, and I think that's really powerful. So, while you're a cadet, you know, you had amazing experiences, I'm sure. Let's talk about what leadership roles you had as a cadet, aside from being, I think, what do they call them now? So, when you are a three-degree and you have a four-degree, you're called like a coach. Okay, so could you talk about that role a little bit? So that's fairly newer…
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  17:45
Yes, it's pretty interesting. So, you go from being a freshman, which is very much so learning how to follow others, into you are assigned a freshman as soon as you hit your sophomore year. So, you'll have a cadet that has just come out of basic, and they're assigned to you, and that might be, I mean, that's many different things, like you're doing the obvious things like feedback with them, that's required. But it goes beyond that, if you make it so, because everything is a leadership opportunity Academy, if you pour into it so that could be, you know, meetings with them to check up, like, “Hey, how's school going?” Or if they're falling behind in school, like, “Let's create a plan to ensure that you pass your classes,” or, “Let's create a plan to ensure that you are going above and beyond and excelling in these areas.” You have those sorts of conversations with them, and I believe you are their protector against the upperclassmen, because obviously the freshmen, like the upperclassmen, duties are to be hard on them so that they become a better person at the end of their year. But as a sophomore, I had always taken as this is my person to protect and lead, because you're the closest first line supervisor to them. So that's how I took the position of if they needed help, if they had gotten in trouble, having those conversations with them to get them back on track, or maybe they're having some difficulty working with some upperclassmen to try to talk that through with them, to make sure our squadron was still meshing with one another. So that is the intention of the role. And you can go as little as just feedback with them, or you can do a lot. And then you also switch at the second semester, so you'll have a new freshman to lead on the back half of the year. Okay, it depends on the squadrons. Sometimes they strategically place you together, like, let's say a freshman said during basic, “I really struggle with academics,” and they knew that academics was my strong suit. We might get linked together so that they have someone that is guiding them, because they know they're going to struggle with that as soon as the school year starts. So, linking up people's weaknesses to their strengths is a big part of it.
 
 
 
Naviere Walkewicz  19:44
That makes sense. I'm glad you shared that, because I think, you know, not all of us are familiar with that, that kind of program now, and I think the term coach is really appropriate. You know, that actually makes sense, and it helps, actually, I think, inform how you can really, like you said, and embrace that role. And what I think is also a theme with you, Lieutenant Marsh, is, you know, you don't do anything just to do it. And you know you do it because you put your whole self into it. And so, while you're a cadet, maybe talk about what were some of the other things that you experienced from a leadership perspective, from peer leadership, because you know, you had the opportunity to help those you said, as you know, four-degree under you. But what about peers and up? Did you see any leadership you experienced in those realms?
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  20:29
Gosh, there are so many leadership stories that I could touch on. I think one that really stands out in my mind was General Clark, who was our superintendent my time at the Academy. And I remember my sophomore year was covid gear, so we had right before recognition, or the night of recognition. My freshman year, we got sent home. I didn't return until the Fall semester. For my sophomore year, that semester was very tough because we were basically locked down. You couldn't leave. You couldn't really go see your family, and that sort of, you know, being contained in those black gates actually, literally, this time was very hard. And I remember there was a time period for at least five weeks when we were kind of stuck in your dorm, and it sucked, to say the least, but the thing that General Clark did was he was not going to ask us to do something as a leader that he was not willing to do himself. So instead of staying home with his family or going out, he came on base almost every night. He was bringing us food from Chick Fil A, Crumbl Cookie, anything that you could think of. He was doing all the cadet things like the, oh my gosh, what's it called when you pour the water?
 
Naviere Walkewicz  21:38
Oh my gosh, the carrier land, carrier landing, carrier landings, with cadets.
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  21:45
That was fantastic. I mean, awesome. And then there was a night, I believe, that he set up a cot in a spare room and stayed over with the cadets. And it's leadership like that that had shown me, don't ask your people to do something that you are not willing to do. There's going to be times that are extremely tough, and I'm excited to be in an opportunity where I get to lead more people after this year's Miss America, and after I finish up my degree is it situations like that where you can make such an impact and show that as a leader, you are not better than the people that you are leading. You are right there, going with it, alongside them. And General Clark showed that to us from day one, and he is a leader I'm always going to remember and look up to and that was just one of the many stories that he showed that to us.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  22:25
And it sounds like that, leading by example is something that you also carry with you in your style and how you want to be seen as a leader. Yes, yes. I think that's wonderful. Let's talk a little bit about you know, you said that you've always enjoyed academics and stem so at the Academy, I understand there's an Academic Success Center. Can you talk a little bit about that? Because that's not something I'm as familiar with.
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  22:48
So, under the Academic Success Center, there are, I believe, two portions of it. So, there's the Quantitative Reasoning Center and the Public Speaking Lab. And I used those all the time, sometimes daily for all four years at the Academy. So, the Quantitative Reasoning Center, they also have a writing lab underneath that, which I also used. So, they will help you with anything from uh, calc one problems to maybe engineering, or maybe you need help writing an essay, or you're not understanding your English class, or you need to help, like prep for public speaking, whatever it might be. So, I went down there all the time because my biggest thing is asking for help early and often. These are free resources that they provide.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  23:32
Does every cadet from E.I., from extra instruction? Or is it part of is extra instruction with your… it's kind of the same?
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  23:37
Okay, so E.I. is with your instructor. Specifically, this is like a place down underneath the comms tower, where it's an entire wing, where people just sit there all day, and you go online and you make an appointment with them for 30 minutes, and they will be assigned to you to go through your essay with you. Or, “I really cannot get this problem on my assignment. Can you help me with it?” So, if your teacher isn't available, you can go there. It is incredible, because if you are falling behind, there's no reason you can't go to the Academic Success Center, because they have people that stay, I think, until like, eight o'clock at night. And they start, I want to, I mean, I it depends on the people, but I know that some of them started like earlier in the school day, like you could go at noon. So, let's say you have an off period, and you're an IC so you can't go after school. You could go during the day if you have time, or even later that night. So, there's so many opportunities to receive help, and I knew that if I was gonna’ go be a Truman Scholar or try to go to grad school, I needed to go 110% in all of my classes, and I couldn't do by myself. I'm not some genius guru who just understood everything. That was not how I was as a student, I did well because I got help from people that knew a lot more than me, and I tried to learn from them, and especially in English classes and history, writing is not my most favorite thing. Yeah, so I had people that did love writing that helped me, and then I think the public speaking lab is also one that is an underutilized resource for cadets. I hear a lot of people that go and use the QRC, but never the Public Speaking Lab. So I used the PSL for anything from pageant prep, whether they were watching my talent or we were going through 100 different political questions and they were grilling me on them, or I'm preparing for a scholarship interview, and how are they going to grill me on my entire life, or my stances on particular things, or my plans, anything that you could think of. They're there for a speech for your class or a presentation for a class. If you struggle with being in front of an audience, they are there to help you, and it's free. And I can tell you right now, I cannot think of many other colleges that have resources like we do, and I remember my dad telling me as a freshman, when I had told him about the Academic Success Center, he was like, “You better be going there every single day, because I can guarantee your older siblings did not have that type of opportunity,” because we have such a small environment compared to some of these big schools across the US. You get really close with your teachers, and you have the opportunity to get really close to all the people at the Academic Success Center. And that is how you go far at the Academy, and you do well. So every Cadet needs to visit there, at least at one point, because I know everyone is not strong in every area.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  26:21
Well, guess what I'm going to be telling my sons about, if you haven't, and it's for all classes. All classes, excellent. And I can assure all of our listeners, as you can also hear and see yourself, that the PSL, the public speaking lab, has been phenomenal for you.
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  26:37
I love it because I think public speaking is such an important part of being an officer, being able to get up and be in a crowd briefing to very important people, those skills that you learn as a cadet are going to carry with you for the rest of your career. So, start on them early and often, so you're not freaked out the first time you're on active duty and someone very important walks in the room and you're having to talk to them.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  26:59
Exactly, exactly the low threat.
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  27:00
Get over with the low threat stuff. Now, in the safe spaces, we always talk about safe spaces.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  27:02
I love that. So, let's talk about life after the Academy. Well before we go there, when you were getting your career drops and all of that, what was, what were you hoping for? We shifted from astronauts, so where did, where did you go?
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  27:19
So, I actually ended up being awarded pilot as my AFSE. But one of the things that I had kind of recognized my senior year was that I was not passionate about going the astronaut route anymore, which meant I didn't want to go to grad school for physics, and I really wanted to focus more on policy and pancreatic cancer, which is why I ended up at the Harvard Kennedy School. So, I made the decision over this last year to not go to pilot training anymore, because I've recognized this entire job as Miss America, there are so many opportunities and jobs in the Air Force to do your job well. And I knew that I was not 100% passionate about the pilot career path anymore, but I could be 100% passionate about something else in the Air Force, which is going to make me do so much better at that job for the people around me. So, I'm changing my job now, and I'm very excited about it. My fiancé is still going to UPT right now, and I love getting to support him and watching that, and now moving into this new phase of my life where I'm going to get to experience another job in the Air Force.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  28:19
So, we have listeners that, you know, find themselves in a path, and they feel, “I might, be stuck here.” Now, talk a little bit about making that decision, and how can you encourage others? I think the key word you used is, “I can do more because I'm passionate about something,” but maybe talk our listeners through how you felt this was the right decision, and at that time.
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  28:41
I did not come to it overnight, that is for sure. I think it took me probably two and a half years to really, finally be comfortable with it. And I think a thing that I struggled with was fear of people judging me because I was stepping away from this big dream of becoming an astronaut, which I can tell everyone right now, nobody cared whenever I stopped doing that, and that was something I was so fearful of. I thought everyone was going to be like, “Oh, she's not doing this big thing anymore. She's not going to do anything.” And that is not what happened when I started. I remember being in scholarship interviews, and one of the things that I'd received in feedback was it sounds like you're just being robotic, talking about this plan to becoming an astronaut, but when I hear you talk about pancreatic cancer, you light up, and those are the best points in your interview. And so, then that made me think. I was like, “Oh, okay, that's kind of odd that they say that I probably should think about that more,” because I thought I was really passionate about this, and my fiancé had kind of sat me down and was like, “We should, like, discuss this. Like, if you're really having second thoughts about it, because you shouldn't be forcing yourself into a career path to make other people happy.” And I remember my dad had called me after this conversation that kind of started, and he was like, “Listen, just because you told your mom you wanted to go astronaut doesn't mean that you need to do it to, like, fulfill the thing that you told her you were going to do.” He's like, “Your mom and everyone else does not care what career you end up in. All they care about is that you're doing something that makes you happy.” And through the loss of my mom, I had recognized every life is very short. Do not waste it on things you don't care about. Do not waste it on things you're not passionate about, because you're not going to do good at them. Like that's just not that's just not how you work. That's not how I work. I know that if I put 100% into something I'm passionate about, the outcome and the impact that I'm gonna’ have is going to be far greater than forcing myself into this idea of who other people want me to be, and that's why I ultimately made that change. And there were a lot of tears at first. There was a lot of second guessing, and I don't think it was really until this January, after I had started, I started interviewing a lot of people on different career paths, like I had spoken to a lot of pilots and asking them what their life was like. And it wasn't until I had interviewed them and also people that are in this profession that I thought I could be really passionate about. That's what really put it over the edge. And I felt very comfortable then with my decision of I am okay, walking away from this old dream because it's no longer my current one, and that's okay. Everyone grows up, everything changes, and that's life, and accept that. And I think because I went 110% on this astronaut path, it opened up the doors to do anything else afterwards. Just because I went down this path for eight years does not mean that I was stuck in it. Since I had worked so hard, I had opened up every single opportunity, like going to Harvard, that has now changed the trajectory of my career and my life.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  31:38
So, Lieutenant Marsh, I have to just say, even sitting here in the room, I'm inspired. I know our listeners are feeling this as well. Talk about how going to Harvard, Kennedy School. What is your vision for how this will impact and where it will take your foundation, or what does this look like to you after?
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  31:56
I think a really cool thing about the fact that the Academy will send you right to grad school afterwards, is because you have so many opportunities to learn from people that are not military and a very different leadership orientation than we might have ever experienced at USAFA or in just the general Air Force. And that's been really cool. I mean, going to Harvard, we are a very small minority of military members that are there, and I'm getting to meet people from all across the globe. Over 60% of our program are international students, really, which is fascinating. Yeah, I'm getting to learn so much about their countries, their government, which I think is extremely applicable to the way that we work in the Air Force, because we are going to be having to work with a lot of these countries, and now I'm getting a deeper understanding of their perspective, their perspective on leadership, so I think that'll be really cool to see how it's going to impact my Air Force career. But my favorite part of it is the fact that it's allowed me to be really flexible, and what I focus on in public policy, my biggest thing has been pancreatic cancer. So how can I take my experience with the loss of my mom and my understanding of medicine and science now put into policy to ensure patients are receiving the best care so they are not going through what my mom went through? And another cool experience that this reminds me of is how I was talking about astronaut to now pancreatic cancer, because I went down physics instead of having to do a conventional physics project my senior year, because I went so hard in that major I was then able to do an artificial intelligence research on pancreatic cancer, wow, and apply like medical scans X-rays to the way that we detect pancreatic cancer in patients. So, it's little things like that that have opened up doors, and now I've gotten to take that research from the Academy, put that into what I'm studying at Harvard. So just so many different ways that you can apply, reapply and change across your life. So that's I'll be excited to see where I get to use it, I think, way down the road, whether I'm in the Air Force or not being able to serve my community with that degree in the leadership that I'm getting to learn there.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  34:04
I can't wait to see what you have, I mean, just in the short amount of time, the impact and drive that you have. I mean, it's kind of it blows us away. So, it's really impressive. I wanted to go back to something you mentioned about the different perspectives from the other you know, cultures and countries, especially on leadership. Was there anything particular that you took away or that surprised you, or that kind of resonated with you from some of the people you've met?
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  34:29
Gosh, there are just so many times, I think one of the things that I love doing was just, I love picking people's brains. Yes, so we had, like, a house about 30 minutes away from Harvard, and what I would do, or try to do, at least once a month, is we'd have everyone bring their food from their country, and we'd have a huge spread, and everyone would just sit down and talk about their lives. And there was this one girl named Paulina that I was good friends with, and she was from Israel, and so getting to hear her perspective, because they have a very different way of military service, because it is, I think it's required for them after they turn 18. And her perspective on why that is important to their country, and comparing it now to how the US is most like, is volunteer based, and the differences in that. And so, I think that was really cool to hear from her, because it's very different than what we do here. And I mean, there are just so many students. One of them, he was a student that had lived in China almost his whole life. I think he left when he was 14 or 16 for school or work, ended up living in Canada for a long time, and now was back in the US and hearing his entire family's take on covid or military operations or their actual thoughts on America was very different, because it is not what you get to hear every day in mainstream media, because it's someone that actually lived there. So, it was every moment that you get to have there is very fascinating if you're asking the right questions and talking to the right people…
 
Naviere Walkewicz  35:57
Especially if you're open to listening.  I have to ask, what did you bring for your food dish?
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  36:01
I made a, what was it, green chili chicken soup.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  36:08
Of that sounds yummy.
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  36:09
Yes. I like a little spicy soup. But it was nice. I was very full that night. I think I have a whole spread of like a table that was 10 feet long, just covered in everyone.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  36:19
Oh, my goodness. Well, I'm a foodie myself, so I can appreciate that, and I would have probably partaken a little bit of everything too. So, we'd like to know, what do you your time is so busy? What do you do to what I would call like, manage your health, your balance in life? What does that look like for you?
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  36:36
I was really terrible at it my freshman year at the Academy, and so I had to learn very fast to make sure I was on the right track. So, freshman year, I was struggling with grief. Obviously, the Academy is very busy, and I gave zero time back to myself ever. It was, I would get up at 6am and I was studying until midnight, and that's what I did every day. I never took Saturdays or Sundays off. I’d just go, go, go. And I think that took a very big toll on my mental health, my social life. And it wasn't until my fiancé Walker was like, “You are going to leave this place and throw up your hat and you're going to have no memories outside of your textbooks.” And I was like, “That is a terrifying thought, because you're totally right. You're 100% right. I have not poured into any of the other outside opportunities.”, and so I started doing very small things, like reading 10 pages of a book every night. That is what I forced myself to start doing sophomore year that slowly grew into, and not a textbook, not a textbook, a fun book that slowly started growing into going to the gym, making sure I have a full Saturday off to be with my friends and family, and so now that I'm having this very busy schedule, I do the same thing. I carry this very large planner around in my bag that goes down to 30 minutes, and I'm planning out every single part of my day. So, if I need to plan when I'm calling my family that goes on there, if I'm planning times to go to the gym that's on there, reading a book, anything that you could think of. That is how I stay replenished mentally. Because I know if I can't be giving that time back to myself, I can't go out and meet people and travel all the time, because everyone has their limits, and I've really had to figure out where mine are over the past couple of years and be very strict with myself to ensure that I don't pass them.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  38:20
I love that because you can't pour from an empty cup. What's the most recent fun thing you've read?
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  38:28
Okay, it's this book called Quitting a Life Strategy, and it is about basically the entire social dynamic on why we look down upon people that quit things, and why that is wrong, and it just meant a lot to me after changing career paths and recognizing that quitting is not a bad word, it's not a negative word. It is a redirection in your life, and it applies to relationships, friendships, jobs, volunteer opportunities, whatever it might be. And it was all of these anecdotes about people that had hated their job and had decided to make a change and are now doing something drastically different and are exponentially more happy, and it just made me feel very certain about the path that I was on, and also more empathetic to people outside of never judging people because they're leaving a certain situation of thinking, the only person that really knows what they're going through is them. And at the end of the day, someone else's life and their decisions don't impact you, so support them. There's no reason to be negative revolving around someone else's life or your own. Just allow people to live life, do their own things. And that is exactly what that book exemplified for me.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  39:40
I love that. In fact, you make me want to read that.
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  39:43
It's great title again, Quitting a Life Strategy.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  39:46
I love that. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, so Lieutenant Marsh, one of the things that our listeners love to know, and you obviously have many talents, because you have competed in in them as well for Miss America, but what's something hidden? Or maybe something special about you that you'd be willing to share with some of our listeners?
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  40:07
Oh geez. I don't know if I have, like, a hidden talent, per se. Okay, I will, okay, this is funny. Going back to the band thing earlier, okay, every time I'm home on holiday, I break out my clarinet and I try to relearn the music and play, and it really irritates my entire family, because I'm not good anymore. I'm not good anymore at all, and they're all like someone take that away from her right now. And this last time I tried playing flute for a little bit, I did not catch on to it as easily as clarinet, and I was home for Christmas, or maybe it was some other time with my fiancé and me, and he had the flu, and I had the clarinet, we were walking around the house playing it together, and they were like, “We have to deal with two of them now, instead of just one.”
 
Naviere Walkewicz  40:48
I love so, that's fantastic. Thank you for sharing this. And I think what's so great, some of the things that you've shared throughout this, well, one, they've been golden. I mean, just amazing leadership lessons. But I think one of the things that has been really special is you talk about your fiancé and that support you've had with him. Maybe just share with our listeners the importance of having kind of a partner or a support network. What did that what does that look like for you? You seem like you lean on him. Does he lean on you? Or is it able to be shared?
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  41:18
Yes, he is. I mean, I would not be able to do this year's Miss America, or really anything without his support, because if you can imagine, I'm traveling all the time, he's going through UPT and is extremely busy. And it's because of our dedication to each other that we're able to come back at the end of each day, calling each other, making life plans, being honest about how we're feeling. And I think that honesty and the ability to lean on each other makes it so much easier to get through everything. And I remember like I talked about earlier my freshman year, I tried to leave multiple times. I tried to leave on the first day basic, my dad told me, “You can quit, but you can't come home to our house.” So I stayed. I wanted to leave after basic, and I decided to stick it out my freshman year. And it wasn't until that Spring semester freshman year, where I had found people like walker or Dr. Anderson or different professors and mentors that I had had that made me want to stay and like I said earlier, you don't go anywhere alone, or at least, you don't go far by yourself. And so, leaning on people, whether it is your partner or a loved one, that is how you're going to succeed in life, and I've had to learn heavily on how can I be there for these people when I'm at 100% because there are definitely days when I'm at home, maybe I'm not traveling as much for Miss America in the Air Force. And Walker had just the worst, most difficult, long week, like he's having this week, lots of tests, lots of Sims, and I get to be there for him, to support him at the end of it. And it's that give and take and understanding that, above all else, we are number one to each other, and that's something that we talk about it a lot, especially when it comes to career planning. For me, our number one is ensuring that we get to be together. Everything else is secondary, because I know I can't go 100% in my job if I don't have my partner there with me, and he feels the same, and so trying to plan life out in a way that always puts us as the priority no matter what. So, he's been very special. And I think you can also get that outside of a partnership, whether that is someone that is your mentor or a family member or a friend, right?
 
Naviere Walkewicz  43:20
I think that was a key kind of takeaway that you shared there about first making sure you know what your priorities are, and then staying true to them. So, Lieutenant Marsh, there's two more things we have in this one, and I'll give you a little precursor: I'm going to ask you if there's anything that we didn't talk about there. I didn't ask you that you want to make sure that our listeners have a chance to hear and then the second thing is, we're gonna’ have kind of those, those few key takeaways that you really want them to kind of indulge in from your perspective. So maybe with the first one, is there anything I didn't ask you that you wanted to chat about today?
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  43:54
I feel like this is gonna’ go into the leadership piece of it. And I just think it is so important to be an empathetic leader, kind of tying back into the mental health I had heard a story once about someone who had someone underneath them that they were leading, and they kept saying that, “Oh, this person's getting in trouble. They're not showing up to meetings. They just don't care. They are just a bad Airman.” When their supervisor had actually sat down and spoken to them, they had actually admitted that they were struggling a lot with depression and needed help, and it takes one person to sit down and have that very like quick conversation of just asking how people are every day and being genuine about it that could change someone's life, and ensuring that you know there are probably going to be people that you're going to lead, that are going to mess up, but be there for them, lead them, be empathetic and make sure that your people are okay. That is your duty as a leader, and that is something from that story I had learned, and now I have to take through the rest of my career to be cognizant of what my people are going through. Maybe they're struggling something with their family. Maybe they're struggling. With something personally, maybe like me, they need help figuring out their rest of their life and their career, and it's just things like that where you can make such an impact on people if you make the time to have those conversations with them, and that is being an empathetic leader, above all else, can really help your people go far, because if you're not focusing on them, they're not going to feel attached to the work that you all do together. But if you can be unified and stick up for one another, you can do so, so much more.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  45:29
Oh man, it's always about the people, right? It's always and I think what you said was really key, and that was asking the question, versus either, you know, just kind of going in and directing, but being really open to listen so well. So now, Lieutenant Marsh, because I know everyone is hanging on to hear what you might leave them with, what really is, what guides you in leadership, and what are the few things that you'd like our listeners to kind of take away?
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  46:15
I would say, going back to earlier, being an empathetic leader, being a leader who goes by example. So don't ask your people to do something that you are not willing to do yourself. And I think those are the two biggest things that I look for. And I've gained at the Academy and now post Academy life, because I'm always looking for things in leadership that I want to take away and things that I don't. And those are the two biggest things that I want to carry in my little toolbox for the rest of my career. And another important personal piece, whether it applies to your job, personal life, family life, whatever it might be, is always doing something that you love. Your life is too short to live it for someone else or to do things that you are not passionate about. If you are passionate, you're going to go so much further and you're going to be happy. That is the only thing that you can really take away from life, is the happiness that one you provided yourself and you can give to other people, and you can only do that if you're doing work that is worthwhile to you. So keeping that in mind, no matter the strife that you might go through or potential changes that you're going to go through in your career and your life, is holding that near and dear to your heart.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  47:21
So, this has been an absolute pleasure to just spend this time with you. Lieutenant Marsh, I have to ask, as a graduate and the graduate community, you know, I've enjoyed listening to your story, what can we do to continue to support you?
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23  47:34
I think the biggest thing that all AOG can do and long blue line is really just being there for the cadets, because it is conversations like this, opportunities to talk on a podcast like this that maybe cadets can listen to, or being mentors for them. That's what helps them get through it, and that's how we create great leaders, is by pouring back into our community where we came from. I know we talked about that earlier off camera. That's the biggest thing for me, looking at the people that gave back to me, and now that I'm a grad, just loving to be a part of this, to give back to the people that are now coming up and are going to be following behind us.
 
Naviere Walkewicz  48:07
Thank you for being such an outstanding I think, leader, influencer, and we can't wait to share in this journey with you.
 
2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23 
Thank you.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 
Thanks for your time.
 
KEYWORDS
People, cadet, Academy, leadership, pancreatic cancer, freshman, Academic Success Center, astronaut, family, sharing, empathy, empathetic, experience, lieutenant, cool, listeners, Marsh, passionate, learn
 
 
 
 
 
The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation
 
 
 

Brig. Gen. Gavin Marks ’96 discusses the absolute importance of standards and integrity in leadership, and how a new, more rigorous approach at the Academy will build that in to cadets making them Day-1 leaders.
SUMMARY
Brigadier General Gavin P. Marks, Commandant of the Air Force Academy, shares his journey from being a young man in Atlanta, Georgia to becoming a pilot and eventually serving as the Commandant. He discusses his experiences at the Air Force Academy, including basic cadet training and the challenges he faced. General Marks emphasizes the importance of perseverance, leaning on support networks, and maintaining high standards in leadership. He also reflects on the impact of the Academy on his personal and professional development. General Gavin Marks reflects on his personal journey and the impact of his wife on his military career. He discusses the importance of being adaptable and humble as a leader and the unique responsibilities of command. He shares his decision to return to the Air Force Academy and the changes he is implementing to better prepare cadets for the challenges of great power competition. General Marks emphasizes the love and passion that the leaders at the Academy have for developing future officers and encourages listeners to continue dreaming big.
 
OUR FAVORITE QUOTES
"How you do anything is how you do everything."
"There's always somebody better."
"I want to make sure that they feel like they got their money's worth from a military development perspective or military training perspective." 
"The leaders at the Air Force Academy, from top to bottom, love deeply, deeply love the institution, and are incredibly passionate about the development of these young men and women into officers in the Air Force and the Space Force."
"Continue to dream big. Don't let anyone dissuade you from goals that you have. And as it relates specifically to the Air Force Academy, it is absolutely worth it."
 
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CHAPTERS
00:00:  Introduction and Background
01:53:  Returning to the Air Force Academy
02:52:  Young Gavin Marks: Childhood and Calling to Serve
07:04:  Challenges and Growth in Basic Cadet Training
08:29:  Lessons in Leadership and Perseverance
11:45:  Choosing the Air Force Academy and Pilot Training
15:06:  Reflections on the Academy's Impact
20:52:  Leadership Experiences as a Cadet
23:43:  Lessons in Leadership and Perception
27:55:  Successes and Career Progression
32:35:  Meeting His Wife and Reflecting on Tinker Air Force Base
37:25:  Personal Journey and the Impact of Relationships
57:54:  Changes in the Life of a Cadet
01:05:48:  Challenges and Partnerships
01:09:39:  Rigor and Expectations
01:11:09:  Love and Passion for Developing Future Officers
01:12:34:  The Value and Worth of Attending the Air Force Academy
 
TAKEAWAYS
The importance of perseverance, resilience, and grit in overcoming challenges, especially during difficult experiences like the Air Force Academy.
The value of having a strong support network, including family and friends, to help navigate challenging times.
The significance of leadership roles and experiences during the Air Force Academy in shaping one's development and future success.
The Air Force Academy's focus on evolving its training and development methods to better prepare cadets for the challenges of great power competition.
The deep passion and commitment of the Air Force Academy's leadership in developing leaders of character who are ready to serve their country.
 
ABOUT GEN. MARKS
BRIG. GEN. MARKS' BIO
Brigadier General Gavin P. Marks is the Commandant of Cadets, U.S. Air Force Academy, Colorado Springs, Colorado. He commands the 4,300-member Cadet Wing and more than 200 Air Force and civilian personnel. He guides military, leadership, character development, Basic Cadet Training and Expeditionary Skills Training for the Air Force Cadet Wing in addition to providing facilities and logistical support. 
Brig. Gen. Marks earned his commission from the U.S. Air Force Academy in 1996 and his pilot wings from Specialized Undergraduate Pilot Training at Columbus Air Force Base, Mississippi, in 1998. Brig. Gen. Marks has served as a T-1A instructor pilot (at both the undergraduate and graduate training levels) and flight examiner, an E-3B/C instructor pilot and flight examiner, an Air Force Intern, a staff officer on multiple joint staffs, and has commanded at the squadron and wing levels. 
Prior to his current assignment, he served as the Director, Electromagnetic Spectrum Superiority, Headquarters U.S. Air Force, Washington, D.C.  
Brig. Gen. Marks is a command pilot with more than 3,400 flying hours in the T-3, T-37, T-1A, E-3B/C/G, RC-135S/U/V, TC-135W, OC-135B, and WC-135C aircraft.  
- Copy credit:  AF.MIL
 
CONNECT WITH GEN. MARKS
INSTAGRAM: @‌USAFACOMMANDANT
 
 
ABOUT LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP
Long Blue Leadership drops every two weeks on Tuesdays and is available on Apple Podcasts, TuneIn + Alexa, Spotify and all your favorite podcast platforms. Search @AirForceGrads on your favorite social channels for Long Blue Leadership news and updates!
    
 
 
FULL TRANSCRIPT
OUR SPEAKERS
Guest:  Brig. Gen. Gavin P. Marks ’96  |  Host:  Naviere Walkewicz ’99
 
Naviere Walkewicz 00:01
My guest today is Brig. Gen. Gavin P. Marks, USAFA Class of ’96, and currently serving as the commandant of the Air Force Academy. This is his third command position since becoming a member of the Air Force. Gen. Marks was drawn to service as a young man in Atlanta, Georgia, and joined the Junior ROTC program in high school before coming to the Academy in 1992. After he graduated, he became a pilot and flew for 26 years, in addition to continuing his personal and professional development. In 2000, Gen. Marks graduated with distinction from Squadron Officer School at Maxwell Air Force Base in Alabama. In 2015, he again graduated with distinction from the National War College at Fort McNair in Washington, D.C. He has held command positions at the squadron and wing levels. His attachment to the Academy has remained strong, so much so that 20 years ago, he committed to returning and had been working his way back to USAFA when he was called to service, assuming his role as commandant in 2023. Gen. Marks, it is a pleasure. Welcome to Long Blue Leadership. Thank you for being here.
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 01:03
Thank you very much. It is an honor for me to be here. It really is.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 01:07
This is an exciting time for us, because especially for me, being a Class of 1999 — “Gold will shine” — I had to get that in there. We go back to Arnold Hall in Basic Cadet Training, when you were the commandant of cadets during Basic Cadet Training for us. So I remember you vividly as your taps from your shoes hit the floor in Arnold Hall. So this is truly a pleasure, sir, thank you.
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 01:29
It is absolutely surreal to be back, and especially during this period that we're in right now during Basic Cadet Training, and as I interact with basic cadets and the cadre, it's hard not to reminisce about that time. It's hard not to share stories as well. I'm careful that I don't inundate the cadets with my stories of when I was the Basic Cadet Training commander. But it's just it's absolutely wonderful to be back here. Yeah, really is.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 01:53
Well, we'll get to hear some of those, I think, you know, from your perspective, back then, and also, more recently, as we weave through this podcast. But really excited. And where we like to start is when we go back to young Gavin Marks. So Gen. Marks, tell us about what you were like as a child.
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 02:08
My mother would tell you that I was precocious, that I was inquisitive. I was very, very talkative as well. So I have an older brother, and we are the sons of two parents that have been married for 55 years, and that's important, because 55 years is a long time, and it taught me the value of being committed. It also taught me the value of what love really looks like, up close and personal as well. I'm from Atlanta, Georgia, as you mentioned, so I'm a product of the South. I am a product of public schools, Baptist churches and Southern upbringing. So, I love sweet tea. I love this disgusting candy called Sugar Babies. And just about anything that you think of with regard to the South, you could probably say that that's pretty accurate as it relates to me and my personality as well. I call everyone ma'am and sir, regardless of rank, just based on my upbringing as well.
I really would tell you that I got a calling to serve in the military by virtue of JROTC. I followed my brother into JROTC. We went to different high schools, and he enjoyed it, but it just wasn't his calling. I got involved in it and knew immediately that it was something that I wanted to do. I love shining my shoes. I love shining the brass belt buckle that I had on my trousers. I love marching. I love drill. I did Color Guard. I did Drill Team. It was wonderful for me. It was, I think, the thing that was missing in my life in terms of knowing what my niche was going to be. And so, my professor at that time in that particular JROTC program, I think he saw something in me, and he was the first one to actually bring up a military service academy. Prior to that point, I hadn't heard of anything about West Point or Annapolis or the Air Force Academy at all. And so, I took a trip with my father and we went out to all three and I can't swim, and so Annapolis was pretty difficult for me to wrap my mind around. West Point was too gray. You know, this is a 17-year-old at the time, or a 16-year-old at the time thinking these things. It's like, “Wow, this was really gray and dreary.” No offense to West Point. And then I got to the Air Force Academy, and I remember stepping off the plane and again, coming from Atlanta, Georgia, to see the snow-capped mountains, to immediately be able to feel the difference in the air, I knew that this was the place that I wanted to be. And so, I told my dad right then, as we stepped off the plane, I said, “This is it.” And he said, “What do you know about this place? You haven't even gone here yet.” But I knew, and the rest, as they say, is history.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 04:48
Wow. So, neither your parents served and your brother was the first kind of introduction to Junior ROTC. What was that like growing up without having that, in Atlanta, not having that military, I guess, presence around you, and you said that’s what you learned was missing. But what kind of got you to that point?
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 05:08
So, I would say, just to be clear, so dad did not have a career in the military, but my father and my uncle both were drafted in Vietnam, and so to that extent, what I would say is, while there wasn't discussions or a lot of military impact in my household, I think, more than anything else, just through watching television, et cetera, there was something about the discipline. There was something about the professionalism. There was something about how revered those that are in service to their nation were in this country that really drew me to the profession of arms. It was just something about the fact that this is a career field. This is a profession that is extremely highly regarded across all facets of life, and I wanted to be a part of it.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 06:03
So, as a young man in public school, did you find yourself drawn to things, like, I started to think about programs that were like discipline-based, like taekwondo or sports in that manner. Did you have some of those experiences as young man?
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 06:16
I played — I ran track, following after my brother. My brother thrived in track and field. I followed him, and I absolutely loathed it. I was not athletically inclined, and try as I might, you know, I work out and I try to stay in good shape, but I would not call myself necessarily an athlete of the highest order by any stretch. And so that absolutely was an albatross around my neck coming to the Air Force Academy, especially during basic training, especially during Jacks Valley.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 06:52
Well, let's talk about that a little bit. Was there a specific instance in Jacks Valley where — because I feel like now you might be able to run circles around some of us.
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 07:01
Well, I will tell you — so, what I remember a lot about Jacks Valley, I remember the power-line runs. And back then we had the M1 Garand, 11, 12 pounds and we carried it everywhere. And it was heavy. You know, 12 pounds doesn't seem like it's heavy, but it's heavy when you're at port arms, and you're running for miles and miles on end, and the altitude, obviously, is vastly different. Jacks Valley is very dusty. You know, “Jacks Hack” is a thing. And so, all of those things, in aggregate, really caused me a lot of trouble. And so, what I remember is thinking often “I'm not going to make this. This is not going to happen for me,” in terms of graduating out of basic training, because I am falling behind in my runs, et cetera, et cetera. But I made it. I made it.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 07:56
I love that. And I think for some of our listeners, the key thing, even just in that one was, you know, you didn't give up. You recognized you just had to keep working at it, and you got through it. And you're now serving as a commandant of cadets. So, I feel like there's definitely a story here that talks about you and your grit and your perseverance and everything throughout these years.
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 08:15
The thing that I took from the Air Force Academy experience probably more than anything else — and there are several things that I took from it — is that this is a an incredibly difficult journey that is made better if you think about it from the perspective of just taking one step at a time every single day. Just show up, just show up, just be present, and that's 80% of it. If you just keep showing up, you are going to be OK. And so that was my mentality: They were going to have to kick me out. I was not going to self-eliminate at all. And so, no matter how slowly I ran back, then they were going to have to kick me out and I was going to keep showing up.
The other thing is, I would say this: I had tremendous teammates. Our squad, well, in Jacks Valley, our flight, which became our squadron — we were so close, even back then. And if one of us was falling behind, “Come on, Gavin, let's go. Pick it up.” And that really helped a lot, because you didn't want to let your teammates down.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 09:22
So, we got a little glimpse of Jacks. So I'm just gonna’ dial it back just real quick, back to the point where you said to your dad, “This is it. This is where I'm going.” So, what was that journey like from Junior ROTC to getting into the Academy? Because I think a lot of people want to know what that looked like for you.
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 09:38
So, I knew that from probably my junior year in high school that I wanted to go into the Air Force or to into the military. I didn't know which branch to be perfectly clear. So I applied to all three service academies. I applied to The Citadel and I applied to VMI and to Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute. Those are all of the ones that I could think of at the time, and the visits helped a lot to crystallize in my mind what I wanted to do. But what really also helped was this fascination with flying. Originally, I wanted to be an astronaut, a dentist, a doctor, an actor, and so many different things when you're growing up, but the idea of flying was really at the forefront of my mind as well. I also knew I wanted to lead. And so, combining those two desires, it made sense to go to the Air Force Academy. And again, I couldn't swim. I tried as much as I possibly could to learn how to swim through the YMCA, et cetera. I'm a product of basic swimming at the Air Force Academy — twice. If I'm being completely candid with you and your listeners, if I could have swam at the time, it is likely that I would have gone to Annapolis, and it is likely that I would have been a Marine, because that is much more, at least in my thinking back then, in line with my personality. Because I am — I will just say the military pillar of the Air Force Academy was, as the young people would say, that's my jam, for sure.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 11:15
I can see that. While I appreciate that, I can see that. We're so glad that we were able to get you here at the Air Force Academy. So, let's talk about your time at the Academy. You wanted to be an astronaut. You turn the dials toward pilot. Let's talk about what that experience looked like.
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 11:30
So, the Academy was very, very challenging. What made it challenging primarily was the balance of so many requirements, and that's on purpose. It is rigorous on purpose because the profession of arms requires it, and the nation needs it, it deserves it. I wasn't prepared for it. High school — I wouldn't say high school came easy for me. I would say I did well in high school, and I did well in high school by virtue of cramming and by virtue of instincts. So, I came to the Air Force Academy not really knowing how to study. I didn't know how to prioritize tasks or manage tasks well at all. And the Academy humbled me tremendously.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Can you share a story about that?
 
Brig. Gen. Marks
Oh, well, I would say this, and the dean, who I know has also been on the Long Blue Leadership podcast as well, she would cringe. So, I never got an F, I'm proud to say, but I certainly am on the team of Ds. I received a D in Aero, and, if I recall, Astro, civil engineering when we had that as a core as well. And that was an incredibly humbling experience for me, because prior to that point, I had never had anything in my career lower than a C in high school or anything like that. And so that kind of thing makes you think, “What am I doing wrong here?” And as you are engaged in that type of introspection, you're still having to get ready for the PFT, and you're still having to get ready for this chemistry test, and you're still having to shine your shoes and get ready for this knowledge test, et cetera, et cetera. And so it was just in my mind, based on my training to that point, not enough time in the day for the reflection that I needed in order to make some changes to my habit pattern. And you're just trying to survive, and you're just showing up every day, one step at a time. So that made it very difficult: the inability for me to study, to not know how to study, the prioritization of tasks. I loved the military piece, and I probably spent more time on that than I should have spent on other things.
 
My roommates would often comment on the fact that I would be shining my shoes for hours, and I would bypass the need to study until the last minute, until the test came. And that didn't work out very well for me. The other thing I would tell you is this: I wouldn't say that I got homesick, but it was a long way from home. It really was, and so going home really helped to fill my cup back up in terms of just being able to reacclimate with my family and those that were around me — extended family, church, friends, et cetera. It was a long way from home.
 
I developed a lot of great friends in my squadron. We were in the same squadron all four years, Way of Life committee, gospel choir at the time as well. And then this team of friends that I had on the Cadet Honor Guard as well. What an interesting year that was on the Cadet Honor Guard. But we became incredibly close, and they're still close to this day.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 14:47
So, I'd like to talk more about the Honor Guard, but before we get there, I think it's important for people to understand that when you find yourself in those tough situations in life and in experiences, how did you pull yourself out of that? You know, you obviously got through. So, something had to change. How did you maneuver that?
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 15:06
So, I will start by saying this: I talked to my parents a lot, and their support was incredibly helpful for me. They approached it from a different perspective. You know, I learned a lot of great things from both of my parents: hard work, my father's work ethic, my mother and unconditional love and what that truly means. And so, when I'm talking to my parents about the rigors of the Academy experience, my mom would say, “You know, baby you can just quit and come on home and go to Georgia Tech. It's right around the corner, and we'd love to have you, and you don't need this.” And my dad would say, “You better not quit. If you come home, it's for Christmas and you're going back.” And reflecting on both of those comments, my mother was basically saying, “No matter what, we're gonna’ love you.” My dad was saying, “No matter what, you can do this, I know you can do it.” And the amalgamation of those emotions and those messages really helped me a lot. It let me know that no matter what, I have support, but I also have the confidence of my parents as well, that leaning on friends is — the friend groups that I talked about as well was really important. And then to a large extent, I would say this: The ability to dig deep inside and pull yourself up even when you are struggling, or even when you are faltering, to be able to show up the next day is really, really important, that grit, that resilience — the thing that we preach to our cadets about now we try to instill in them through the rigors of the Academy experience. It's really important. It's not only important at the Air Force Academy, it's important throughout life, because life obviously throws so many different curveballs your way, right?
 
Naviere Walkewicz 17:11
I appreciate that you shared that leaning into your support network, not only for their love and their confidence in you, but also it sounds like there was a bit of asking for help and what that was, and so I think that's important for people to hear too. While you are having to pull yourself up, there's no shame in asking for help along the way.
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 17:27
Not at all. And I would tell you, my mother has so many letters at home and letters that I don't even remember writing during my time at the Air Force Academy, where I was explaining to her different things that were going on that would bring a smile to my face now, because I would be shocked that I would have said these things to my mother or my father in terms of what was taking place and the help that I perhaps needed at the time.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 17:53
That's great perspective. So, you mentioned Honor Guard, and what an incredible year. I was not part of Honor Guard, but I did appreciate how they helped us stay militarily ready. What was that journey like for you?
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 18:08
Hard. It was very, very difficult. What I would say is this: So the Cadet Honor Guard attracted me because of the discipline that they had, that they have because of what they represented for the institution as well. These were the cadets that in every formation, carried our nation's flag. These were the cadets that were held up as the example of what a good uniform looked like and what military professionals should strive to look like and resemble and the precision with which they drilled was incredibly impressive to me. And so, when they had an opportunity to showcase what they were about to the fourth-class cadets at the time, so that we could show interest in different clubs, et cetera…
 
Naviere Walkewicz 19:02
Because you had to try out for honor guard. Is that correct, sir?
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 19:06
I'm trying to think if I would call it a try-out.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
That’s probably not the right word.
 
Brig. Gen. Marks
I think it's probably one of the greatest examples that I can talk to about just showing up, which is to say, “Come one, come all, and there's going to be a lot of physical activity, a lot of running, a lot of drill work, et cetera, all meant to condition you and build your endurance for challenging times when you're in formation, and bad weather and things of that nature, because you know, when you're carrying the nation's flag, it's a no-fail mission, and you can't drop it. And it doesn't matter that it's 20 degrees and 50 knots of wind, you can't drop it.” And so how do I build that into you: the importance of what you're doing means to not only this institution, not only to the Cadet Wing, but to the nation as well? It was a grueling year. It was a hard year. And so I think we started probably with 70-ish fourth-class cadets, and our team ended up at the conclusion at about 16. And that was our team, and that was the team that we carried forth throughout the remainder of our time at the Air Force Academy. And again, I still stay in touch with them to this day. It was a fantastic group of people.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 20:35
That's incredible. So aside from Honor Guard and some of the time that you spent as a cadet, let's talk about your leadership as a cadet, because you've had multiple positions of leadership.
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 20:47
So, the two that resonate most with me right now, and that I gained a tremendous amount from — the summer leading into my two-degree year I was the Basic Cadet Training group training non-commissioned officer. That's a mouthful, and so the privilege of being able to, and I'm gonna’ use air quotes, “greet” every new appointee as they arrived on the bus to the base of the ramp was given to me, and it was quite an honor. And so, I got to get on the bus and welcome every single basic cadet in the Class of 1998. I will never forget that. And then the next summer, I was the Basic Cadet Training commander, like you were talking about in your earlier comments,
 
Naviere Walkewicz
I definitely recall that.
 
Brig. Gen. Marks
I had a lot of fun, and beyond the fun that you have as cadre during Basic Cadet Training, I had a lot of fun in this regard. As the training NCO, seeing the progress, the development of the basic cadets from I-day, or from that first day of basic training, until the Acceptance Day Parade, if you will, or until we handed them off to the Jacks Valley cadre was something that I really appreciated, because it was very, very noticeable: the changes in drill, the changes in customs and courtesies, the changes in uniform wear, the changes in Mitchell Hall decorum, the changes in how they kept their rooms, et cetera. It was noticeable. And I really appreciated being able to see the fruit of the labor of the cadre. As the BCT commander in so much that you can learn executive-level leadership as a cadet, it taught me a lot about that. So this is the first time that I had an opportunity to conduct my own staff meetings, to build my own staff, to chart a vision, to set objectives, to hold accountable. It taught me a tremendous amount beyond the fun and the great memories of walking across the stage with my taps on during the Fourth of July at A-Hall, which I absolutely still remember to this day, I absolutely remember to this day.
But both of those experiences are indelible for me at this point. And I talked to the BCT cadre about them now, because I want them to know that this time that they have is so precious, precious not only because of the memories that they're going to make, but precious because of the impact that they're going to have on these basic cadets. They will remember them forever. They will remember them forever.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 23:30
Truth. So, I think one of the things that is so unique about that: You said, it was the first time you had the experience of conducting kind of your own operations, or what that looked like, the battle rhythm, the vision. I think a lot of our listeners, you know, they look at you, you're a general, you've been a leader. You know all this. What are some of the things you learned about yourself in that experience that maybe you would share just some lessons in leadership in the early parts of your leadership journey?
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 23:55
So, I learned very early on, probably as a three degree, that standards really, really matter. It crystallized for me as a probably a three degree, and it just continued to resonate throughout the rest of my career that standards matter greatly in our profession, and perhaps across all walks of life. They matter because of the fact that if we allow someone to not be questioned about meeting standards, we will likely allow further deterioration down the road and erosion down the road, which could lead to catastrophic occurrences. And I've seen it in numerous instances, whether we're talking about accidents, aircraft accidents, whether we're talking about units that have toxic cultures. Because oftentimes it starts with the breadcrumbs that you can walk back to the erosion of standards.
There's a line that I love in John Wick. I'm a big John Wick fan. The fourth movie, the bad guy, I don't remember his name, said that his father used to tell him, “How you do anything is how you do everything.” And that is so powerful to me. It is so incredibly powerful. “How you do anything is how you do everything.” I believe that. I truly, truly do. And I learned that for the really, for the first time, as a three degree. I would also tell you perception matters. And I learned that as a firstie as well. How you conduct yourself — as Patton would say, “You're always on parade.” It's important. And if your staff thinks that you are cutting corners here or showing favoritism there, whether that's true or not, it's their reality, and they are going to respond based on how they view their reality, how they view the world in that context. And so, I as a firstie through the experience of the BCT group commander, began to truly pay attention to what perceptions I was perhaps enabling. How about I put it that way? Those are two that come to mind in terms of lessons in leadership that I learned here at the Air Force Academy. When I talk about the idea of building a staff and running a staff meeting, they seem minor. Building the staff was important because it was at that time that I realized that while I may have some things that I'm pretty good at, there are a lot of things that I'm not, and I want to surround myself with people that are good in those areas that I'm not. And so I was very, very deliberate in who I surrounded myself with from a BCT group staff perspective. And then I would also say it's important to, especially when you walk into a group for the first time, to know what you're going to say, to have an agenda for how you want to run things. Because that first impression when you walk in as the leader, as the boss, as the commander, et cetera, it's gonna matter. It is absolutely gonna matter, and you will never have another opportunity to make a good first impression. And so, I could go on and on. I learned a lot from my experiences here in leadership at the Air Force Academy.
 
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Those are excellent examples.
 
 
Brig. Gen. Marks
That's why I wanted to come back. While I understood what standards meant and the importance of them as a three degree, I didn't fully put together the impact that the Academy had on me until I was a captain. Leaving here, probably like you and others, I drove away as fast as I could.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
The rear-view mirror…
 
Brig. Gen. Marks
Absolutely, and I told myself that I would never be back here.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Really?
 
Brig. Gen. Marks
I really did at that time, because enough time hadn't passed to allow me to reconcile all of the wonderful things that had taken place in my development during that four-year period. And it wasn't until I was a captain that I realized that who I was as a function of the Air Force was in large part due to the development that I had received at the Air Force Academy. I credit my parents as well, for sure, but the Air Force Academy, for sure, had a lot to do with that, and I wanted to give that back to other cadets.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 29:03
Was that in a moment of reflection that you realized that, or was that — did something happen where you were like, “Wow, that's something that I kind of took from the Academy.”? How did you come to that realization?
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 29:15
I was having — a lot of positive things occurred to me in my career. At that point, I was having a lot of successes, and at some point, I thought about the fact that while certainly I am truly blessed, and certainly there is some luck that plays into that as well, I at some point, through introspection, just kind of look back on the journey that I had gone through from being the knucklehead kid from Atlanta, Georgia, to being this captain in the Air Force, and the metamorphosis that occurred and how that happened. And, so I can only attribute it — some of that, again, is the development over time, when your parents are teaching you things and instilling values and virtue into you, and at the time, when you're a know-it-all teenager, you don't think that it's sinking in, but it does, and it shapes you over time. So, some of it's that, but some of it was the Academy itself.
I will tell you this: So, there was a program that I participated in as a junior, I guess, in high school, where I got to come to the Academy for an overnight visit. And I stayed with a cadet, and what I remember about that is this: So I think I stayed two nights. But the first night I went to a pay phone to call a friend, and there was a $20 bill at the top of the pay phone. And so, I went back to the room to tell the cadet, “Hey, somebody left some money there,” and he said, “Don't worry about it. Whoever left it, they'll remember that they left it there, and they'll come back and get it.” And I was bewildered. I was like, I don't understand how that's possible. OK, so the next night, I went to the same pay phone, and it was still there. And I was blown away, and I never forgot that, that this is a place where honor really, really matters. And certainly my parents have integrity, and certainly they, you know, preached and instilled those types of values, but here at the United States Air Force Academy, it was practiced every single day, and it was visibly discernible to me throughout all facets of the Academy experience that undergirding these, you know, push-ups that I was doing and this chemistry test that I was taking, et cetera, was this honor code and these core values that all of us together share. And I just absolutely love that. Reflecting on that over the course of seven years changed my life, truly, for the better.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 32:15
Thank you for sharing that story. And I actually got chill bumps just thinking about, well, I mean, but you're, right now, you can't think about a lot of places where you can leave something and it's probably still going to be there, or if it was identifiable, it would probably been returned. So, I think that is something we can be so proud of. So, you mentioned, sir, some of your successes. They were kind of, you know, happening outside of the Academy once you'd graduated. Let's talk about what your career looked like and what those successes were.
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 32:50
So, I was a casual lieutenant. And I guess the claim to fame that I have is that I was Gen. Lorenz’s casual lieutenant. So Gen. Lorenz was the commandant immediately after I graduated, went on to become a four-star general, and he is still incredibly active here in the Academy community, and being his casual lieutenant, specifically, his special projects officer, was enlightening in a lot of different ways. Gen. Lorenz is a great leader. He's a unique leader as well. And I learned a lot from being in his space, being in his presence, and seeing how he conducted business. Interestingly enough, when you walk up to the office spaces of the Cadet Wing where my office is, in the hallway is a display of all the previous commandants and their biographies. That was one of my projects as a lieutenant, believe it or not, a long, long, long, long time ago. And so, it gave me an opportunity to be able to research all of the previous commandants to that point and see the commonalities between them as well.
So I did that for a little less than a year, and then I went to pilot training. Pilot training was hard. Pilot training was very, very hard. In fact, I came back, if I recall correctly, either in the middle of pilot training or just as I was graduating to talk to the Cadet Wing, the Class of 1998 — one of the classes, ’98 or ’99 — invited me back to talk at M5.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
I'd like to say it was us.
 
Brig. Gen. Marks
I would like to say it was you all too.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Can I claim it?
 
Brig. Gen. Marks
And you all gave me the bird, and it was wonderful, and I still have that bird in my office to this day. And I talked about how hard pilot training was, but maybe you'll remember this. I listed the top five hardest things that I've ever done in my life to that point, and I can't remember — I remember No. 1, but I can't remember the exact order, but it was something along the lines of the four-degree year, the entire cadet experience, pilot training, SERE at the time, and my four-degree Honor Guard experience was No. 1 for sure. But all of that to say, just being able to come back to the Academy was a tremendous honor, especially for this silly second, actually, I was a first lieutenant at the time. So went to pilot training and then was selected to be able to stay at pilot training and be an instructor. I went from Columbus to Vance Air Force Base and did that for three years in the T-1, which I absolutely loved. The T-1, that aircraft was probably, if I had the resources, if I was well healed, I would buy myself a T-1 and if I could afford the maintenance. I absolutely love flying that plane and enjoyed my time in AETC. And really, there's nothing special about me. When you enjoy what you're doing and feel like you have a passion for it, oftentimes you're going to do well. I think that's that holds true for just about anybody. I did pretty well in the T-1. After that, I went to an internship at the Pentagon, and so I was there on 9/11 and I got my master’s in D.C., left there. After that, I went to Tinker Air Force Base. I did not want to go fly AWACS, and I love AWACS now, but I did not at the time. And I remember when I drove up to the gate for the first time after my year in D.C., and the Security Forces airmen that saw me at the gate asked me, “Are you OK?” just based on the, luckily, based on the look on my face after driving cross country. But what was special about Tinker is that that is where I truly learned, as I would call it, meat-and-potatoes flying, stick-and-rudder flying, no kidding, no thrills and frills. In the AWACS aircraft, you've got to know how to move that jet where you need it to move. You've got to know how to compensate for the aerodynamics of the roto-dome when you're refueling, you've got to know how to fly. And I so it was very enjoyable in that regard, and just being operational was enjoyable. Tinker, though, what I will always credit Tinker for is this: Tinker is where I met my wife.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 37:15
So I was gonna’ ask when the magic happened.
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 37:19
Yeah, it happened at Tinker. We met through a mutual friend and so, interestingly enough, I always say that the two best decisions I ever made in my entire life, I show on my left and my right hand: my wedding ring on my left, my class ring on my right. Best decisions I've ever made for myself. My wife is retired Air Force 23 years, and she was a first lieutenant, I was a captain. We met through a mutual friend and became friends, and over time, over a period of about a year and a half, we started dating. I asked her to marry me after another year and a half or so, probably a little longer than I should have waited. So, I arrived in 2002, we were married in 2005.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 37:59
Was her uniform better than yours, sir.
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 38:05
Oh, goodness, no. So my wife, she will listen to this. My wife would tell you that she has had a wonderful 23-year Air Force journey. Started off with 13 years enlisted time and went to OTS, et cetera. My wife would tell you that I am, I think the term is, I am very “ate up” in terms of the military. Hopefully your listeners know what that means.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 38:32
Yes.
 
Brig. Gen. Marks
She was not, at all. Not at all. That was not her personality.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
They say opposites attract.
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 38:35
But I think really, more than anything, what I loved about her, beyond her candor and her honesty, was her compassion as well, her intellect, her ability to be able to see the world in a different way than I saw it — for us to respect each other's opinions about different things, for her difference of a net of opinion, but how she viewed the Air Force and her journey through the Air Force differently than I viewed mine. But we respected each other's nonetheless. And my wife is the reason why I'm still serving and I say that because of this, if my wife was not still in love with this Air Force journey, I would have stopped. I absolutely would have, because being married — and our family is, I hate to say it, is more important to me, truly it is. And so, I would have absolutely stopped. But she loves it. I loathe PCSing. Can't stand it. I'm in a great career field, but my wife loves it, loves the excitement, loves thinking about what's next. And so as long as she's enjoying it, I'm enjoying it too. Yeah, she's my best friend, my best friend for sure. So, we met after that, got married. Fast forward, I left Tinker and went to a Staff assignment in Suffolk, Virginia, stayed there for about three years, went back to the T-1 as a director of operations, a commander in the 99th of Tuskegee Airmen heritage. Then I went to National War College, went to Staff, went back to Tinker, 10 years as the vice wing commander, Offut as the wing commander, back to Staff again, and then here as the commandant.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 40:32
So, when did the idea trickle back to the mind of, “I want to get back to the Academy?” How did that come into play? Was that just a natural progression of your career? Or how? How does one navigate that?
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 40:43
So, it was at the time this realization that it had changed me so much and so positively. How can I be a part of another person's just incredible admiration for the experience and appreciation for the experience that they had while they were here? And so, I started investigating becoming an AOC, because at the time, that was where my status in life was in terms of rank, and was the most appropriate, if you will. It just didn't work out for me in terms of the timing.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 41:24
So, you'd already been looking throughout your career to come back.
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 41:27
At different points in my career, so about the seven-year point is when I said, “No, I would really like to go back and give back.” And now it's a function of trying to maneuver the timing and all of the other facets that make up an assignment and career progression to try to see how that could work. As an Air Force intern, that counted as my in-residence intermediate developmental education. And so, because of that, I was fast-tracked to staff immediately. And so, timing just didn't work in terms of that intermediate level, getting back to the Academy and making a difference. And so, the next opportunity for me was as a lieutenant colonel, because at that time, our group commanders were group AOCs and they were lieutenant colonels, the opportunity didn't present itself and command of a flying squadron did, and so I absolutely jumped on that with both feet. The idea kind of was off in the back portions of my brain after graduating from command and it didn't come back into the forefront until I got back to the Pentagon because I view the Pentagon as most people do. You know, it's a necessary evil. There is tremendous virtuous work that takes place at the Pentagon. It really is. And I certainly don't mean to poo-poo it. Staff work is important. It's necessary. I wanted to get back into, no kidding, base, desperately. And it had been 27 years-ish to that point. I'd come back for coronavirus. I was working for Gen. Brown and for Secretary Kim. I came back for corona and that was one of the first times that I had been back. And I knew I had to get back here. And interestingly enough, I brought my check to Doolittle Hall. I wanted to be a life member, and I had my $800 check in my pocket. My wife gave me permission, and I was like, “I'm ready.” And I'll never forget this. I don't remember who I talked to, but she said, “Hey, if you wait just a few more months, it'll be free for everybody.”
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Membership for all graduates!
 
Brig. Gen. Marks
I was like, “Sweet!” And then she happened to look at my ring, and she's like, “You got a chip on your ring. Why don't you hand that over to us? Your buying this ring came with a lifetime warranty.” And I was like, “This is unbelievable. This is like, divine intervention. I gotta get back to this place. I love it.” Yeah, I'm so happy to be back here.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 44:18
That is wonderful. So maybe before we go into arriving back here, kind of some of the surge of what that experience was like — what were some of the leadership nuggets, or the leaders that you worked either under with as peers, those you learned from that worked under you, that you kind of continued to evolve yourself as a leader. What were some of those that shaped you?
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 44:39
So, I think I will start with my time at Tinker as a flight commander. I think one of the things that I learned then was the importance of being credible in an operational flying squadron. Yeah. Your worth is, especially in a flying squadron, especially as a CGO, your worth is in how well you fly, speaking for pilots in that career field. And so, when you fast forward that to now, what I tell junior officers is this, “As a CGO, your No. 1 objective, your sole objective, is to be a master of your craft. Nothing else really matters. Being a master at your craft is the recipe for success, and if you are not able to do that, it is going to be difficult for you.” So, I learned that at Tinker Air Force Base, I would say, fast forwarding a little bit further to some of my Staff assignments, I would imagine, one of the reasons why I have never been incredibly fond of Staff is because I have — there has never been a good fit for me in terms of the staff assignments that I've been in. I could argue maybe the last one was perhaps, but where I'm going is this: It taught me the need to be able to be adaptable to learn as you go, to be open to learning, and to be humble enough to ask a lot of questions. And I think that that's a tremendous leadership trait to have, to humble yourself to your team, to come in and say, “I don't know everything. I don't know all that you all are doing.” Your stories even, “Please help me to understand. Please teach me.” So Staff, for all of the pains at times, really has developed me to have a better appreciation for that. I would tell you in command, “Oh, my goodness, command is all I ever want to do,” which is both naive and probably a very elementary way of thinking about things I just love command, and command has taught me so much.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 47:16
What do you love about command?
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 47:20
So, command is special because there isn't really, not really. There isn't period another position in the military where you are statutorily and regulatorily responsible for mission and people, nothing else. There is no other position in the Department of Defense military like command and to — especially at the unit level, the squadron level — to have such an immediate impact on mission like you are able to, as a squadron commander, and have such a positive impact, direct impact on airmen's lives. It is so incredibly fulfilling. And as you progress and command at higher levels, the direct impact on individuals lives lessens, but the direct impact on mission grows exponentially. I absolutely, not only that, but as you command at higher levels. While the impact, and I probably should have said it this way, the impact that you would have on so many individual airmen's lives’ lessons, the impact that you can have on an individual airman's life magnifies based on rank. It is significant also. And I always — one of the things that I tell people all the time is the… it's an oversimplification, but the only reason to have rank is to do good, is to do good things, to make things happen in a positive way that affect positively mission and benefit airmen's lives. That's it. That's all. And if it if rank becomes something different than that for you, you are in the wrong business, or we've given it to the wrong person, if I'm being honest with you.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 49:11
Thank you for sharing that. So how did you find out that you — how did it work to become the commandant of cadets? Is that something that you're selected for? How did you find out?
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 49:23
So, I — well for your listeners, there's a dream sheet, if you will. We have a module that we go into and identify things, jobs, positions, perhaps even locations that we think that our skill-set matches up nicely for or that match our family circumstances, and in that module, I talked about the fact that I wanted to be able to give back to the Air Force Academy in this way. And talked about the fact that for 20 years or so, give or take, I have been trying to get back here to be able to have an impact. And I listed some of the things that I felt enabled me to have that type of impact. And then I got a call from the colonel's group or the general officer’s group. I can't remember which one, probably general officer’s group, that said, “Hey, the superintendent would like to interview you.” And I said, “OK, very good. I look forward to talking to a superintendent.” And what I will tell you is this: It is very difficult to prepare for an interview like that. Number one, you know, in the short amount of time that you're given to prepare for it. And then two, you just really don't know what you're going to be asked. And my knowledge of the Academy was very, very dated, you know, for 27 years ago when I graduated. But I said, “OK, let's go. Let's do it.” And so, I talked to him on the way home from the Pentagon in my car driving home, and we had a really nice conversation. And I remember parking in our driveway, and I remember staying in the driveway for about 15 more minutes as the conversation concluded, and I remember going into the house, and I remember talking to my wife, and I said, “You know, there are probably a number of people that interviewed, and they are, I'm positive, incredibly well suited for the position. There's always somebody better.” That's another great lesson that the Academy taught me, is there's always somebody better. But I said, “I think I feel like that went well. I don't know that I could have given any more to that interview.” Eventually, the superintendent made a decision. The superintendent had to vet that decision through higher levels as well. And eventually you come out on a list and it is announced that this is your next job.
 
 
Naviere Walkewicz
That’s how you found out? You saw the list?
 
Brig. Gen. Marks
So admittedly, you know, birdies are talking to me ahead of time. But at the same time, you are just as a professional, more than anything else that is, that's meant to be private information for just and your family to kind of get your mind wrapped around those types of things. Because, as we've seen over the course of numerous years now, sometimes these lists come out later, and if you were to find out solely by that, that's not a lot of time to house hunt. That's not a lot of time to arrange schools. That's not a lot of time to arrange PCSing, you know, those types of things. So, and in this particular case, I needed to PCS from the Pentagon. I needed to perform a promotion ceremony. I needed to work a change of command ceremony here as well. And so, my wife and I joke, now this last move was the most difficult move we've ever, ever had, because I did all that in 30 days.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 53:27
Wow, it was a lot, but this was probably one that you were both excited for, not just her.
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 53:31
Oh, we were. The amount of YouTube videos that we watched in our household about basic training and about the Wings of Blue, just to get our kids excited about this, which is why, I mean — there is no excuse for not knowing what you're walking into at the Air Force Academy, because there are thousands of videos out there. Yeah, and so we were very excited, and the kids were incredibly well educated on what they could expect, everything from the wildlife that's on the installation, to the climate and the altitude, to what cadet life was going to be like. And so, we were really excited. And I remember — and because the kids had never been here at all, my wife and I had taken a trip here early in our marriage, our kids had never seen it and the excitement over the five days of driving was just really, really building up. And so, when we finally were able to see the big white box on the horizon,
 
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Yes, the chapel-in-the-box.
 
Brig. Gen. Marks
Yeah, when we were able to see that, and I was pointing to it as we were driving, they were just, they were just absolutely bubbling over with excitement. It was amazing.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 54:34
How did you feel when you saw it?
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 54:38
Very, very excited. A little overwhelmed. Also, I would tell you, I was really — I was both naive and I was also incredibly humbled and respectful of what I was walking into. Naive in this regard: I felt like, my goodness, I don't know that I've ever been more prepared for a position that I'm walking into than being the commandant of cadets at the Air Force Academy. Because I graduated from here. I surely have to be well prepared and well suited. You know nothing about the inner workings of the Air Force Academy as a cadet. Nothing, nothing. And so, there was so much to learn about governance, not only that — I will tell you this: I had some troubles academically. I never had any run-ins from an honor perspective. I never had any discipline issues, either. And I don't say that to sound self-congratulatory. I say that to show my ignorance, because there were significant gaps in my knowledge and my understanding of how to manage the Cadet Wing, because I had never had any experience with honor, I'd never had any experience with discipline, and so I had to dive into those when I got here and learn that where somebody else might not have had to do that. Very respectful of what I was — the Academy is an incredibly special place. It is also, I don't say this, I don't mean this pejoratively, it is also a lightning rod for attention. There is always attention being drawn to the Air Force Academy and coming into the institution knowing that, it certainly had my attention up front, and I realized also that the opportunity to shape 4,000 cadets and to be able to be the one with a great, amazing team responsible for their military development, their character and leadership development, to ensure that on graduation they had achieved everything that they needed to do in terms of commissioning education to be responsible for their honor education, to be the one that is ultimately overseeing cadet life, it's an awesome, awesome responsibility, and I had a tremendous amount of respect for it when I came into the institution. So overwhelmed in that regard.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 57:22
I almost could feel through your eyes what you just expressed in coming back and seeing the Academy again and I think this is a wonderful time, because some of us have had the opportunity, whether it's been recent reunions, to hear you speak at reunion briefings, to catch a glimpse of you know, some of the changes or some of the things that you've brought back. Maybe this is an opportunity to share what's Academy life like now, but through the eyes of the commandant. What would you like to share with our listeners?
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 57:49
So, I would tell you and your listeners that the life of a cadet has changed and is going to change even more. So, I would start much more strategic and talk about this geo-strategically. Being in an era of great power competition, we recognize that because of who our competitor is, because of the advances that they have made, et cetera, it is incredibly important. It's critical for us to rethink how we do just about anything. Rethink how we train, how we develop, how we organize, how we employ force, how we sustain that employment of force, everything. At the Air Force Academy we're in a developmental business and so it's important for us to step back and ask ourselves, with no indictment on the past and the cadets and the lieutenants, rather that we have created and that we have graduated, but right now today, are we doing everything that we can to ensure that the lieutenants that we graduate are ready to lead on Day 1 and win ultimately, should deterrence fail in great power competition? In that deep dive, we have to explore some of the training techniques that we employ here and whether they are applicable on the outside and the force the greater force, or whether they are potentially creating a hazard of negative transfer, we have to ask ourselves whether some of the traditions that we enjoy, or that we have enjoyed here at the United States Air Force Academy, are appropriate for this day and age, send the wrong message, or are potentially harmful in terms of our culture and our climate. Deep diving into all those things, one of the things that I've come to the realization about is this: What I want to be able to do is ensure that a cadet that has graduated — and I know that I won't be here for four years, but assuming that I was — meeting a cadet on I-Day and walking with them through four years, I want to make sure that they feel like they got their money's worth from a military development perspective or military training perspective. And here's what I mean by that: Anecdotally, as I talked to cadets, hundreds of cadets, and talked about their journey at the Air Force Academy, one of the things that I found is that the institution and the curriculum challenged them as a four degree. I think that is universal. But I would also say, and I would imagine, that many of your listeners who are grads would agree that once you were out of your four-degree year, the institution allowed for it to be, if this was your desire, very easy for you to coast militarily, or, dare I say, potentially hide militarily. And I didn't want that. I wanted essentially the same level of rigor that is placed on you academically and the same level of rigor that is placed on you physically and athletically to be placed on you militarily. Said another way, the same sweaty palms that you get in anticipation of your GR are the same sweaty palms that you get in anticipation of your PFT. I want you to have an anticipation of your inspection, or an anticipation of your formation, or an anticipation of your knowledge test, et cetera, throughout your four years. And so, we have evolved our thinking and more importantly, our focus to developing across all four years with the same level of diligence and the same level of rigor that we placed in our fourth-class development. And so the moniker, or the catch phrase, the bumper sticker that we use is that we have transition from a focus on the fourth-class system, to a four-class system, where you can expect, as a rising three degree, or as a rising two degree, to be taught what we need you to do in terms of your military development, expectations and responsibilities, let loose to go practice those things, those supervisory skills, et cetera; assessed on those things, taught warfighting skills as well, that will prepare you for great power competition, et cetera, et cetera. And I can go into a lot more detail, but suffice it to say, this is a significant shift in how we've been operating, and it's a shift for the better, because this is what our nation needs. This is putting us in a better position to be ready on Day 1 to lead and to win on Day 1. So, I'm really excited about it.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
That is exciting.
Brig. Gen. Marks
We're also bringing some rigor back into expectations about what it means to be a member of the Cadet Wing. So, in other words, we are increasing the number of formations. We are increasing the number of inspections. We are putting our money where our mouth is with respect to the fact that we say and rightly so, that we value character. We are now adding that too as a function of how we assess from a military performance average perspective, how we assess character, because it's so important, it's so critical. There are a lot of changes that are happening for the better, and these changes are going to affect not only the readiness of our cadets, but it's going to affect the culture of our Wing as well in a positive way. It's just going to take some time.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 1:04:00
That’s outstanding. Do you see that trickling up as well into some of the officers that are involved in this, with you, and shaping the cadets — so the AOCs, also your AMTs, and how they're doing that? Is that part of this as well?
 
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 1:04:13
It is, and I'll be honest with you, I don't want to be short-sighted or to minimize the impact that the entire institution is going to have. Believe it or not, the touch points that our faculty have, our coaches and staff have, they are abundant, and we would be doing ourselves and our cadets a disservice if all of us in lockstep were — not attacking the problem, but weren't in this together in terms of this development and this approach that we're taking. And so we are. We absolutely are. The dean and I are classmates. We have a tremendous and positive relationship, same with the athletic director and the executive director of Athletics as well. And together we have coffee on a regular basis, and we share ideas and talk about our approaches so that we can together positively impact our cadets. So yes, it is an all-of-USAFA approach and an all-in approach.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 1:05:22
Absolutely love that. Well, I have two questions. I want to give them to you so you have a chance to think about. The first one being, you know, as a commandant, what keeps you up at night? I think that's something on the minds of our listeners. But then also, would you share maybe, what's something that you're so proud of that's happened since you've been here kind of under your leadership, and maybe something that you're not so proud of? And you can answer those however you'd like.
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 1:05:48
What keeps me up at night is the resilience of cadets. And let me explain that just a little bit. In no way is that an indictment of a generational thing; this generation of cadets is less. Not at all. It's me talking about human behavior and saying that our program is difficult, it's challenging, and individuals respond in different ways to that, and what keeps me up is an individual feeling like there is no way out. That bothers me a lot. It really, realy, really concerns me a tremendous amount. And so I spend a lot of time talking to our command teams about this and about the need for us to administratively ensure that we are being as efficient as possible when we adjudicate certain matters, because what we don't want to do is leave someone dangling in terms of decision making for months and months on end, because that exacerbates that problem and my concern. In terms of what I am most proud of — so, the jury is still out, but here's what I'll say: I'm very proud of a lot of things. I'm proud of the team we've assembled. I'm proud of the work that is being done at the Staff level. I'm proud of the work that our commanders and our AMTs are doing. Our commanders, our AOCs. I am also very proud of the partnership that we have across the installation. That partnership has enabled us to make a significant change to what is called the schedule of calls, the construct that defines how cadets, day to day, spend their time, essentially. We have made a significant change to it that enables us to provide a more professionalized delivery of commissioning education. It has allowed for us to provide some white space in cadets lives, significant white space. It has allowed for us to build in time for unit fitness. Unit fitness being the operative phrase there, because the unit is so important and developing that cohesion is so important. It has built in time to allow for us to more evenly create a common experience for all cadets. And what I mean by that is this: Prior to this change, which will be instituted in the upcoming academic year, our military training period happened in the afternoon, and oftentimes, because of conflicting schedules, it was very difficult for us to have all of our cadets in a unit at that training event at the same time — club activities, intercollegiate activities, et cetera. Moving that training period into the morning, first thing in the morning, 0700 in the morning, has mitigated a lot of that. And so now you're going to have 90, 95 percent of the squadron there doing readiness and warfighting training, and it's going to be wonderful. It's going to be fabulous. I'm extremely proud as a member of the institution in this change that we together have made.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 1:09:32
That sounds like something that would have helped us as cadets maybe do better while we were there. I think that's wonderful. So, before we close and get your final thoughts — I think it's really important that we have an opportunity to hear, if there's something I didn't ask that you wanted to share, or that you'd like to leave the listeners with — I'd like to just share a brief message here for our listeners.
 
Naviere Walkewicz
Now without further ado, I want to get back to Gen. Marks because I think this is probably the part that really kind of summarizes our time together and really brings people to the message that you'd like to leave them with.
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 1:10:20
I think what I would leave your listeners with is this, and I don't know demographically if more of them are alum or not. What I would say is we certainly love to hear from you and love to receive your input. But what I would love also is for you to believe that we are moving in a direction that we truly believe is best, not only because of the geo-strategic imperative, but because it is best in the development of our cadets to do the job that we need them to do as leaders upon graduation. And my hope is that to some extent, you allow for some grace and some benefit of the doubt as we work through and make some changes. But the other thing I would ask you to just keep in mind is this: The leaders at the Air Force Academy, from top to bottom, love, deeply, deeply love the institution, and are incredibly passionate about the development of these young men and women into officers in the Air Force and in the Space Force. And while, you know, we certainly may have differences in terms of approach, trust me when I tell you, there is no difference at all in the terms of the overall goal. The overall goal is to develop leaders of character that are ready to lead on Day 1 as lieutenants in the Air Force and Space Force and win great power competition, period. And I think we're moving in the right direction.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 1:11:57
That is awesome, sir. I will share to your point. You said you're not sure who our demographics of listeners are. We do also have families and those young people that are aspiring to come to the Academy. So, I might ask one other question. If you could go back and talk to young Gavin, what message, now knowing what you know, what might you share with him if he was still looking at the Air Force Academy today?
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 1:12:17
I would tell young Gavin this: Continue to dream big. Don't let anyone dissuade you from goals that you have. And as it relates specifically to the Air Force Academy, it is absolutely worth it. It is absolutely worth it — until I met my wife — the best decision I have ever made in my life. Now that I have met my wife, one of two best decisions I've ever made in my life, and it has never changed. It is absolutely worth it.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 1:12:56
Thank you so much for that. Thank you for your time today. Absolutely pleasure.
 
Brig. Gen. Marks 1:13:00
I've had a lot of fun. Thank you.
 
Naviere Walkewicz 1:13:02
Thank you very much.
 
 
KEYWORDS
Brigadier General Gavin P. Marks, Air Force Academy, commandant, pilot, leadership, perseverance, support network, standards, honor, discipline, Air Force Academy, military career, leadership, command, adaptability, humility, cadets, great power competition, character development
 
 
The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation
 
 
 
 
 

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The Long Blue Leadership team was in attendance at the 2024 National Character and Leadership Symposium and interviewed several NCLS speakers.

Does being bold make a good leader or does a good leader have to be bold? Karl Falk '98, is leader who knows bold both ways. 

Gen. Pringle discusses her experiences as a cadet, including unique firsts. And she highlights the challenges she faced in her career and the lessons she learned.

What are the top five characteristics great leaders share? Academy graduates, Alison ’15 and Paul ’16 Yang, discuss that answer — and more!

Lt. Gen. (Ret.) Bradford J. Shwedo ’87, uniquely suited to his calling, explains how he leverages lessons from the past to equip present-day warriors to dominate future warfare.   

Third-generation warrior, RC-135 pilot, and thought leader, Maj. Nathan Dial ’10, describes his connection to USAFA, his bond with the cadets and how the leadership lessons he learned fuel his drive to serve and support the Long Blue Line.

A-10 Warthog pilot and combat veteran, Col. (Ret.) Kim “KC” Campbell ’97, recounts an incident over Baghdad leading her to make a decision that changed her life then and informs how she leads to this day.